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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:12 pm 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:
Works with Iran, right?


Well, there's been no evidence of Iran continuing with its nuclear program since the treaty that Trump scuttled. And now we do have our thumbs up our butts with them.

Speak for yourself, please.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:47 pm 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
threatening to sue me because I pointed out how hypocritical and self-righteous you are.
You're rewriting history. If that had been all you'd done, I wouldn't have given a flock. You called into question my professional ethics, and that I won't tolerate. Then you apologized and as far as I was concerned it was and is over. --Bob

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:00 pm 
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silverscreenselect wrote:

The North Koreans "denuclearization" commitment is like the commitment people make to lose weight every year.


About the same as Iran's, right? The difference is we didn't give the North Koreans a $billion in cash.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:18 pm 
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tlynn78 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:
Works with Iran, right?
Well, there's been no evidence of Iran continuing with its nuclear program since the treaty that Trump scuttled. And now we do have our thumbs up our butts with them.
Speak for yourself, please.
Haven't you heard? SSS is the spokesperson for everyone and everything. He knows all.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:35 pm 
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BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:

The North Koreans "denuclearization" commitment is like the commitment people make to lose weight every year.


About the same as Iran's, right? The difference is we didn't give the North Koreans a $billion in cash.


Three differences between the Iran situation and North Korea:

1) North Korea has nuclear weapons; Iran doesn't. In addition, the ten-million-population capital city of one of the US's major allies and one of the world's top economies is 35 miles from North Korea. 35 miles from the Iranian borders are ocean and desert.

2) The North Korean "agreement" is one page lacking specifics; the Iran treaty was 150 pages containing lots of specifics regarding what the Iranians were and were not allowed to do.

3) North Korea has never agreed to any sort of verification program (that's where many of the earlier attempts at agreements fell apart); there were dozens of inspectors in Iran conducting inspections on an ongoing basis.

Iran did roll back their nuclear program and the inspections bore this out. You can argue whether the cost was too high, but they are considerably further away from a nuclear bomb than they were before (only a matter of a few months).

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:36 pm 
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Estonut wrote:
tlynn78 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
Well, there's been no evidence of Iran continuing with its nuclear program since the treaty that Trump scuttled. And now we do have our thumbs up our butts with them.
Speak for yourself, please.
Haven't you heard? SSS is the spokesperson for everyone and everything. He knows all.


Apparently the Norwegian lawmakers who've nominated President Trump for the Nobel Peace prize forgot to run the idea by SSS. Poor boo. Get busy like Bob and get that recession rolling!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:38 pm 
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Estonut wrote:
He knows all.


I don't know all, but I do read and that puts me well ahead of many right wingers whose only sources of information are Trump and Fox News.

In regard to my specific contention about Iran, please tell me one thing that Trump has done since pulling out of the Iran treaty to try to keep Iran from going back to developing nuclear weaponry. Bluster and tweets don't count.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:39 pm 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:

The North Koreans "denuclearization" commitment is like the commitment people make to lose weight every year.


About the same as Iran's, right? The difference is we didn't give the North Koreans a $billion in cash.


Three differences between the Iran situation and North Korea:

1) North Korea has nuclear weapons; Iran doesn't. In addition, the ten-million-population capital city of one of the US's major allies and one of the world's top economies is 35 miles from North Korea. 35 miles from the Iranian borders are ocean and desert.

2) The North Korean "agreement" is one page lacking specifics; the Iran treaty was 150 pages containing lots of specifics regarding what the Iranians were and were not allowed to do.

3) North Korea has never agreed to any sort of verification program (that's where many of the earlier attempts at agreements fell apart); there were dozens of inspectors in Iran conducting inspections on an ongoing basis.

Iran did roll back their nuclear program and the inspections bore this out. You can argue whether the cost was too high, but they are considerably further away from a nuclear bomb than they were before (only a matter of a few months).


FFS-what has it been 12 hours? I realize we have the attention span of gnats, but maybe we can give North Korea a week or so before we totally write everything off.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:46 pm 
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Spock wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:

About the same as Iran's, right? The difference is we didn't give the North Koreans a $billion in cash.


Three differences between the Iran situation and North Korea:

1) North Korea has nuclear weapons; Iran doesn't. In addition, the ten-million-population capital city of one of the US's major allies and one of the world's top economies is 35 miles from North Korea. 35 miles from the Iranian borders are ocean and desert.

2) The North Korean "agreement" is one page lacking specifics; the Iran treaty was 150 pages containing lots of specifics regarding what the Iranians were and were not allowed to do.

3) North Korea has never agreed to any sort of verification program (that's where many of the earlier attempts at agreements fell apart); there were dozens of inspectors in Iran conducting inspections on an ongoing basis.

Iran did roll back their nuclear program and the inspections bore this out. You can argue whether the cost was too high, but they are considerably further away from a nuclear bomb than they were before (only a matter of a few months).


FFS-what has it been 12 hours? I realize we have the attention span of gnats, but maybe we can give North Korea a week or so before we totally write everything off.
The issue I have is that we've already made our concession, and it was a big one. It shouldn't have been made until and unless an equally immediate tangible and verifiable concession from the North Koreans was already on the table. That didn't happen.

In essence, Donny sold something, not even in exchange for a post-dated check, but in exchange for the promise of a check from someone who has already lied about such things in the past. So perhaps you'll understand why I think he got rolled. --Bob

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:53 pm 
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A quick google provides what purports to be the full text of the agreement:

President Donald J Trump of the United States of America and Chairman Kim Jong Un of the State Affairs Commission of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) held first historic summit in Singapore on June 12, 2018.


President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un conducted a comprehensive in-depth and sincere exchange of opinions on the issues related to the establishment of new US-DPRK relations and the building of a lasting and robust peace regime on the Korean Peninsula. President Trump committed to provide security guarantees to the DPRK, and Chairman Kim Jong Un reaffirmed his firm and unwavering commitment to complete denuclearization of the Korean peninsula.
Convinced that the establishment of new US-DPRK relations will contribute to the peace and prosperity of the Korean peninsula and of the world, and recognizing that mutual confidence building can promote the denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un state the following:
The United States and the DPRK commit to establish new US-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity
The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula
Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula
The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains, including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.
Having acknowledged that the US-DPRK summit — the first in history — was an epochal event of great significance in overcoming decades of tensions and hostilities between the two countries and for the opening up of a new future, President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un commit to implement the stipulation in this joint statement fully and expeditiously. The United States and the DPRK commit to hold follow-on negotiations, led by the US Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and a relevant high-level DPRK official, at the earliest possible date, to implement the outcomes of the US-DPRK summit.

President Donald J Trump of the United States of America and Chairman Kim Jong Un of the State Affairs Commission of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea have committed to cooperate for the development of new US-DPRK relations and for the promotion of peace, prosperity, and security of the Korean Peninsula and of the world.


Which part has the President being "rolled"?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Bob78164 wrote:
Spock wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:

Three differences between the Iran situation and North Korea:

1) North Korea has nuclear weapons; Iran doesn't. In addition, the ten-million-population capital city of one of the US's major allies and one of the world's top economies is 35 miles from North Korea. 35 miles from the Iranian borders are ocean and desert.

2) The North Korean "agreement" is one page lacking specifics; the Iran treaty was 150 pages containing lots of specifics regarding what the Iranians were and were not allowed to do.

3) North Korea has never agreed to any sort of verification program (that's where many of the earlier attempts at agreements fell apart); there were dozens of inspectors in Iran conducting inspections on an ongoing basis.



Iran did roll back their nuclear program and the inspections bore this out. You can argue whether the cost was too high, but they are considerably further away from a nuclear bomb than they were before (only a matter of a few months).


FFS-what has it been 12 hours? I realize we have the attention span of gnats, but maybe we can give North Korea a week or so before we totally write everything off.
The issue I have is that we've already made our concession, and it was a big one. It shouldn't have been made until and unless an equally immediate tangible and verifiable concession from the North Koreans was already on the table. That didn't happen.

In essence, Donny sold something, not even in exchange for a post-dated check, but in exchange for the promise of a check from someone who has already lied about such things in the past. So perhaps you'll understand why I think he got rolled. --Bob


You think he got rolled because you hate him. I am confident that the administration will be working to establish a verification program in the near future, that will be more comprehensive and reliable than the ones we have seen in the past. Just because it isn't in place today, this very minute, doesn't mean it isn't going to happen, bob-tel. And I seriously doubt there will be any cargo planes full of cash landing in North Korea any time soon. Surely an above average litigator like yourself might grasp that concept.

And just about every post you make further reinforces my opinion of your ethics.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:15 pm 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
Estonut wrote:
He knows all.


I don't know all, but I do read and that puts me well ahead of many right wingers whose only sources of information are Trump and Fox News.


What a maroon.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:17 pm 
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tlynn78 wrote:
A quick google provides what purports to be the full text of the agreement:

President Donald J Trump of the United States of America and Chairman Kim Jong Un of the State Affairs Commission of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) held first historic summit in Singapore on June 12, 2018.


President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un conducted a comprehensive in-depth and sincere exchange of opinions on the issues related to the establishment of new US-DPRK relations and the building of a lasting and robust peace regime on the Korean Peninsula. President Trump committed to provide security guarantees to the DPRK, and Chairman Kim Jong Un reaffirmed his firm and unwavering commitment to complete denuclearization of the Korean peninsula.
Convinced that the establishment of new US-DPRK relations will contribute to the peace and prosperity of the Korean peninsula and of the world, and recognizing that mutual confidence building can promote the denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un state the following:
The United States and the DPRK commit to establish new US-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity
The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula
Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula
The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains, including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.
Having acknowledged that the US-DPRK summit — the first in history — was an epochal event of great significance in overcoming decades of tensions and hostilities between the two countries and for the opening up of a new future, President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un commit to implement the stipulation in this joint statement fully and expeditiously. The United States and the DPRK commit to hold follow-on negotiations, led by the US Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and a relevant high-level DPRK official, at the earliest possible date, to implement the outcomes of the US-DPRK summit.

President Donald J Trump of the United States of America and Chairman Kim Jong Un of the State Affairs Commission of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea have committed to cooperate for the development of new US-DPRK relations and for the promotion of peace, prosperity, and security of the Korean Peninsula and of the world.


Which part has the President being "rolled"?
The part where North Korea just repeats the same promises it's made and broken in the past (the link contains links to the actual statements), with no tangible consequences for North Korea (nothing about verifiability), while we pay the price (cancelling joint exercises and legitimizing a brutal dictator) up front. When will denuclearization occur? How will we verify it?

Perhaps an analogy to our relations with Cuba is a useful way to think about it. Weren't Republicans (including some on this very Bored) unhappy when President Obama met Raul Castro? But I'd be willing to bet we got a lot more from Cuba before meeting its President than Donny got from North Korea before taking this meeting. I don't think it's mathematically possible for us to have gotten much less. --Bob

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:20 pm 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Spock wrote:

FFS-what has it been 12 hours? I realize we have the attention span of gnats, but maybe we can give North Korea a week or so before we totally write everything off.
The issue I have is that we've already made our concession, and it was a big one. It shouldn't have been made until and unless an equally immediate tangible and verifiable concession from the North Koreans was already on the table. That didn't happen.

In essence, Donny sold something, not even in exchange for a post-dated check, but in exchange for the promise of a check from someone who has already lied about such things in the past. So perhaps you'll understand why I think he got rolled. --Bob


You think he got rolled because you hate him. I am confident that the administration will be working to establish a verification program in the near future, that will be more comprehensive and reliable than the ones we have seen in the past. Just because it isn't in place today, this very minute, doesn't mean it isn't going to happen, bob-tel. And I seriously doubt there will be any cargo planes full of cash landing in North Korea any time soon. Surely an above average litigator like yourself might grasp that concept.

And just about every post you make further reinforces my opinion of your ethics.
No, I think he got rolled because he paid a proven liar up front and got nothing in return but vague promises. Do you think he got something in return in addition to vague promises? Or are you okay with making the payment up front?

I'll wait while you consult with Fox News to find out what you should think. --Bob

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:29 pm 
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Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
The issue I have is that we've already made our concession, and it was a big one. It shouldn't have been made until and unless an equally immediate tangible and verifiable concession from the North Koreans was already on the table. That didn't happen.

In essence, Donny sold something, not even in exchange for a post-dated check, but in exchange for the promise of a check from someone who has already lied about such things in the past. So perhaps you'll understand why I think he got rolled. --Bob


You think he got rolled because you hate him. I am confident that the administration will be working to establish a verification program in the near future, that will be more comprehensive and reliable than the ones we have seen in the past. Just because it isn't in place today, this very minute, doesn't mean it isn't going to happen, bob-tel. And I seriously doubt there will be any cargo planes full of cash landing in North Korea any time soon. Surely an above average litigator like yourself might grasp that concept.

And just about every post you make further reinforces my opinion of your ethics.
No, I think he got rolled because he paid a proven liar up front and got nothing in return but vague promises. Do you think he got something in return in addition to vague promises? Or are you okay with making the payment up front?

I'll wait while you consult with Fox News to find out what you should think. --Bob


Once again, you didn't read my post, or didn't understand it. I'm sure the excellent first-hand sources that you always cite have assured you that there will never be any verification that they are getting rid of their nuclear capability. bob-tel, you are convicing no one, no matter how many times you repeat it.

Bob, the first of his name, the ethical lawyer, the above-average litigator, the illiterate one.


Last edited by flockofseagulls104 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:30 pm 
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Bob78164 wrote:
tlynn78 wrote:
A quick google provides what purports to be the full text of the agreement:

President Donald J Trump of the United States of America and Chairman Kim Jong Un of the State Affairs Commission of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) held first historic summit in Singapore on June 12, 2018.


President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un conducted a comprehensive in-depth and sincere exchange of opinions on the issues related to the establishment of new US-DPRK relations and the building of a lasting and robust peace regime on the Korean Peninsula. President Trump committed to provide security guarantees to the DPRK, and Chairman Kim Jong Un reaffirmed his firm and unwavering commitment to complete denuclearization of the Korean peninsula.
Convinced that the establishment of new US-DPRK relations will contribute to the peace and prosperity of the Korean peninsula and of the world, and recognizing that mutual confidence building can promote the denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un state the following:
The United States and the DPRK commit to establish new US-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity
The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula
Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula
The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains, including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.
Having acknowledged that the US-DPRK summit — the first in history — was an epochal event of great significance in overcoming decades of tensions and hostilities between the two countries and for the opening up of a new future, President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un commit to implement the stipulation in this joint statement fully and expeditiously. The United States and the DPRK commit to hold follow-on negotiations, led by the US Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and a relevant high-level DPRK official, at the earliest possible date, to implement the outcomes of the US-DPRK summit.

President Donald J Trump of the United States of America and Chairman Kim Jong Un of the State Affairs Commission of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea have committed to cooperate for the development of new US-DPRK relations and for the promotion of peace, prosperity, and security of the Korean Peninsula and of the world.


Which part has the President being "rolled"?
The part where North Korea just repeats the same promises it's made and broken in the past (the link contains links to the actual statements), with no tangible consequences for North Korea (nothing about verifiability), while we pay the price (cancelling joint exercises and legitimizing a brutal dictator) up front. When will denuclearization occur? How will we verify it?

Perhaps an analogy to our relations with Cuba is a useful way to think about it. Weren't Republicans (including some on this very Bored) unhappy when President Obama met Raul Castro? But I'd be willing to bet we got a lot more from Cuba before meeting its President than Donny got from North Korea before taking this meeting. I don't think it's mathematically possible for us to have gotten much less. --Bob


The joint exercises already took place, in April. LOL - what did we get from Cuba? Cigars? I don't recall hearing much about Cuba's nuke capabilities. What would be useful thinking would be for you to spend some time actually thinkiing. When you aren't busy.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Consequences for non-compliance.

Having none stated yet knowing they exist, and Trump's proclivity to make snap judgments (such as canceling the first summit) is probably the best thing to hold Kim in line.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:55 pm 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:

You think he got rolled because you hate him. I am confident that the administration will be working to establish a verification program in the near future, that will be more comprehensive and reliable than the ones we have seen in the past. Just because it isn't in place today, this very minute, doesn't mean it isn't going to happen, bob-tel. And I seriously doubt there will be any cargo planes full of cash landing in North Korea any time soon. Surely an above average litigator like yourself might grasp that concept.

And just about every post you make further reinforces my opinion of your ethics.
No, I think he got rolled because he paid a proven liar up front and got nothing in return but vague promises. Do you think he got something in return in addition to vague promises? Or are you okay with making the payment up front?

I'll wait while you consult with Fox News to find out what you should think. --Bob


Once again, you didn't read my post, or didn't understand it. I'm sure the excellent first-hand sources that you always cite have assured you that there will never be any verification that they are getting rid of their nuclear capability. bob-tel, you are convicing no one, no matter how many times you repeat it.

Bob, the first of his name, the ethical lawyer, the above-average litigator, the illiterate one.


bob-tel, if you wonder why I have so much animus towards you, it stems from the day where you declared yourself a few days after the election. I had no problem with you before then. Then it grew, post by post, as you let more of yourself out. I see you as a low-level Peter Strzok, using what power you have, and what power that has been entrusted to you, for partisan purposes out of pure spite because the election didn't turn out the way you wanted. You cited the Billy Bush video and were totally outraged by it, yet I would bet just about anything that if Bill Clinton was on the ballot, you would have voted for him in a heartbeat. Our country would be so much better off if people like you and Peter Strzok, on both sides, stayed out of the people's business.

Sorry, but that's the impression you give me by your posts and your arrogance. Maybe I'm mistaken. Explain to me how my opinion of you is wrong.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:24 am 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
I'm sure the excellent first-hand sources that you always cite have assured you that there will never be any verification that they are getting rid of their nuclear capability. bob-tel, you are convicing no one, no matter how many times you repeat it.
He hears directly from "the military." He said so.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:32 am 
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BackInTex wrote:
Consequences for non-compliance.

Having none stated yet knowing they exist, and Trump's proclivity to make snap judgments (such as canceling the first summit) is probably the best thing to hold Kim in line.
He doesn't know they exist. Donny's not in any position to impose consequences that outweigh what he's already given up. And there isn't much to hold him to. --Bob

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flockofseagulls104 wrote:


You think he got rolled because you hate him. I am confident that the administration will be working to establish a verification program in the near future, that will be more comprehensive and reliable than the ones we have seen in the past. Just because it isn't in place today, this very minute, doesn't mean it isn't going to happen,


You accuse Bob and me of allowing our hatred of Trump to cloud our opinions about what's going to happen (leaving out the numerous other experts who have pretty much said the same thing). But what, other than some blind faith in Trump, would lead you to believe that based on the performance of him and his administration so far, would lead you to believe that he and his people are capable and willing to work out a verification program that's "more comprehensive and reliable than the ones we have seen in the past"?

This is a man who essentially wings in and works off his gut and has little patience with detail. You deride the Iran treaty (which worked, by the way), but that took Obama's team and the Iranians over two years of negotiation and numerous lengthy lower level face-to-face meetings for that to occur. Do you really see Trump and his people going through with that sort of process, or do you perhaps somehow think that he and Kim will magically come up with a better formula while they are looking over condo sites on the beaches near Pyongyang?

Diplomacy is long work, hard, work, and detail work. That's not what someone like Trump cares for and he has systematically sacked or allowed to quit many of the people in the State Department who have expertise at things like that.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:52 am 
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tlynn78 wrote:

The joint exercises already took place, in April.


Quoting from Military Times, so I guess you could say I do hear directly from the "military":

Quote:
The U.S. conducts two major joint exercises with South Korea each year, Ulchi Focus Guardian, which is scheduled for this August, and Key Resolve/Foal Eagle in the spring. This year’s Foal Eagle was pushed back to de-conflict it with the Winter Olympics. A part of that exercise, Max Thunder, irked the North Korean leader to the point that he cancelled one of the pre-summit talks with South Korean president Moon Jae-In.


https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your ... exercises/

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:53 am 
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2014:

Image

2018:

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:02 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
2014:

Image

2018:

Image



Gotta say, although I despise Trump as a vile being, this picture does not show that he was RETURNING the salute, as a superior to a subordinate. The video it was taken from show the NK officer saluting Trump first, normal protocol as far as I know.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:53 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
2014:

Image

2018:

Image


Yessir, you read, unlike the redneck right wing morons you are always complaining about. And this is what you come up with. Very important. Earth shattering stuff. Thanks for sharing.


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