Contractor contract question

[FannytheBull]

Old toilet that would flush a cinderblock.

I'm a little concerned about your diet...

Rec! Biggest laugh I've had all day.

And the sun hasn't even set yet!

Btw, Miss Fantine just saw fit to saunter past on her way to the water bowl. No orange hair.......

[jaybee]

Well, from the contractor - (NOTE: the contractor guy doesn't have time during the day to post on the bored as he's out there trying to finish up all his projects)

We give an estimated completion date, just so everyone knows what to expect. As to a written in stone "it must be completed by xxxx or else - forget it. As to the fixed completion date with a penalty clause - while this is fairly standard in commercial work only a fool (both homeowner and contractor) would do this in a residential remodel. Here's why - the variables are many and causes of delays are hard to pin down. Plus, a penalty clause is just an insurance policy - meaning that you (the homeowner) is going to pay for it. That, and to be a fair thing to all sides, then there must be a bonus clause for early completion. Faced with knowing that this is going to be in the contract, how far ahead of his real expected completion time do you thing the savvy contractor will set that completion date? Final answer is that the homeowner will pay a premium for that completion date guarantee.

I would say that we go beyond our estimated completion date more often than not. The most common cause is extra work added to the project (we call it the "while you're here could you please" syndrome). Other factors are weather, unforeseen complications once you get into the project or employee illness. Note that only one of those factors is something that could possibly be controlled by the contractor. So if you want me to contractually commit to a completion date, especially with a penalty - well then I am going to pad the hell out of the time estimate and charge you a premium to cover myself. That's just the reality of it.

On the flip side, if you get a contractor with a solid reputation then you know that they are doing everything in their power to complete your project on time. Bad weather, out-of-stock materials or the discovery of termite infested framing found after a project starts are understandable delays. Dropping a project to go on to the next one is not.

A reread of this makes me sound just a little cranky. I've spent the entire day, save for an hour for lunch, in an attic. It's been in the 90's all week. At 4:00 this afternoon, my handy, dandy digital thermometer had the temperature in my "space for the day" at a comfy 149.2 degrees. Another reason we charge so much.

[Bob78164]

Well, from the contractor - (NOTE: the contractor guy doesn't have time during the day to post on the bored as he's out there trying to finish up all his projects)

We give an estimated completion date, just so everyone knows what to expect. As to a written in stone "it must be completed by xxxx or else - forget it. As to the fixed completion date with a penalty clause - while this is fairly standard in commercial work only a fool (both homeowner and contractor) would do this in a residential remodel. Here's why - the variables are many and causes of delays are hard to pin down. Plus, a penalty clause is just an insurance policy - meaning that you (the homeowner) is going to pay for it. That, and to be a fair thing to all sides, then there must be a bonus clause for early completion. Faced with knowing that this is going to be in the contract, how far ahead of his real expected completion time do you thing the savvy contractor will set that completion date? Final answer is that the homeowner will pay a premium for that completion date guarantee.

Several years ago when I had all of my windows replaced, I asked for and got a contractual completion date. It required "substantial performance" by the completion date, and I was fine with them setting it comfortably far out. I told them that my big fear was being stuck with an open hole in my wall for days at a time. They told me that wouldn't happen -- any window that started on they'd finish within the same day. They were true to their word, and finished comfortably in advance. --Bob

[littlebeast13]

I'm a little concerned about your diet...

Rec! Biggest laugh I've had all day.

And the sun hasn't even set yet!

Btw, Miss Fantine just saw fit to saunter past on her way to the water bowl. No orange hair.......

ES must have defective rods (or is it cones? I can never remember)..... I wouldn't say it's orange, but then again, I can't really say what color it is. I have adopted it for Fanny now since at least the zodiac series.....

lb13

[FannytheBull]

Rec! Biggest laugh I've had all day.

And the sun hasn't even set yet!

Btw, Miss Fantine just saw fit to saunter past on her way to the water bowl. No orange hair.......

ES must have defective rods (or is it cones? I can never remember)..... I wouldn't say it's orange, but then again, I can't really say what color it is. I have adopted it for Fanny now since at least the zodiac series.....

lb13

I didn't notice until after I posted that and was on the desktop with the bigger screen that FannytheBull also has that colour hair. (The colour on my laptop is off, anyway.)

She started out as a blonde. But they don't have any fun.......

[Estonut]

I'll wager that you've never been on long term Vicodin use.....

No. I only take it at parties. 3-4 a day for 35 years...

[gsabc]

Well, from the contractor - (NOTE: the contractor guy doesn't have time during the day to post on the bored as he's out there trying to finish up all his projects)

We give an estimated completion date, just so everyone knows what to expect. As to a written in stone "it must be completed by xxxx or else - forget it. As to the fixed completion date with a penalty clause - while this is fairly standard in commercial work only a fool (both homeowner and contractor) would do this in a residential remodel. Here's why - the variables are many and causes of delays are hard to pin down. Plus, a penalty clause is just an insurance policy - meaning that you (the homeowner) is going to pay for it. That, and to be a fair thing to all sides, then there must be a bonus clause for early completion. Faced with knowing that this is going to be in the contract, how far ahead of his real expected completion time do you thing the savvy contractor will set that completion date? Final answer is that the homeowner will pay a premium for that completion date guarantee.

I would say that we go beyond our estimated completion date more often than not. The most common cause is extra work added to the project (we call it the "while you're here could you please" syndrome). Other factors are weather, unforeseen complications once you get into the project or employee illness. Note that only one of those factors is something that could possibly be controlled by the contractor. So if you want me to contractually commit to a completion date, especially with a penalty - well then I am going to pad the hell out of the time estimate and charge you a premium to cover myself. That's just the reality of it.

On the flip side, if you get a contractor with a solid reputation then you know that they are doing everything in their power to complete your project on time. Bad weather, out-of-stock materials or the discovery of termite infested framing found after a project starts are understandable delays. Dropping a project to go on to the next one is not.

A reread of this makes me sound just a little cranky. I've spent the entire day, save for an hour for lunch, in an attic. It's been in the 90's all week. At 4:00 this afternoon, my handy, dandy digital thermometer had the temperature in my "space for the day" at a comfy 149.2 degrees. Another reason we charge so much.

Jaybee, thanks for the info. Yes, the guy had a solid reputation. Yes, he almost certainly would have finished the job and not walked away from it. But he kept saying he had three jobs ahead of us, he did everything serially so he didn't start one until the previous one was substantially completed, he didn't know when he would get to us, etc., etc. Wouldn't even put down an estimate for a start date. We weren't looking for a hard date on either start or finish. We just didn't want this thing hanging until next spring, which is how it was looking. I'm in QA for an FDA-regulated industry. Blank spaces in a process where something should be written bother me.

The new guy is coming over this morning with the estimate and contract. He has already told us that he can start pretty much as soon as all the constituent parts arrive, which we believe will be around Sept. 1st. He's ordering some (tub, toilet, tile, others), we're ordering some (vanity, countertop, medicine cabinet, others). Everything seems to have a consistent 3-4 week lead time.

[jaybee]

G. - That's where the best advice is to go with your gut as to who you hire to work on your home. To me, there is a huge difference between an estimated start or completion time vs a contractual 'must be done by' date. However, there should be no reluctance on the contractors part to at least give an estimated start date. No matter what you do though, you just can't cover all the bases. We lost a project from a good, repeat client because we could not meet our estimated start date. Mind you - we hadn't even gotten to the contract stage - it was a case of at our first estimate meeting the time-frame and our availability was discussed. Our available time fit in nicely with their travel plans. But, by the time several weeks later that it came to sign contracts one of our existing clients had added substantial projects to a current remodel. When I told our potential client that we would have to delay the start from what we had talked about, they canceled the whole thing.

[gsabc]

We're set. Initial start date was August 16th, but then one of the other professionals got back to the contractor on scheduling. Now starting either the day after or the week after Labor Day (not sure which I heard on the call, and have to check again). Better for us, anyway. Makes sure we'll have all the stuff we ordered, and we'll be back from our trip to Tanglewood by then.

Now to pick the paint, the sink faucet and towel racks. Pretty much all else is settled, and we have a good idea what we want on those others.

[secondchance]

One of the recommendations that Harvey Levin often spews at the end of The People's Court episodes, is to add the following words to project or construction-type contracts: "Time is of the essence."

For whatever that's worth.

[earendel]

Our original choice of a contractor for our bathroom remodel did not want to fill in the blank for the completion date. When asked about it, he talked about low probability stuff like accidents to himself and others that might delay the work. He also said

A completion date only protects the contractor when it comes to putting a mechanics lien on their property, by law it is required. It has no real benefit to the home owner, ...

I don't get this at all. How does explicitly stating in the contract "You need to be done by December 1st" protect the contractor and have no benefit to us? As I see it, it should protect us in that he can't walk away from a half-finished job with our money in his pockets, leaving us with holes in the walls and in search of someone to complete the work at additional expense.

We have blown him off and selected another contractor, whose contract we should get by early next week. All the estimates we got were similar, so it was as much personality as pricing in the decision. I will try to post a before and after set of bathroom photos somewhere. If it all comes together as planned, it'll be great.

Perhaps I'm a little late to the discussion but given that I work with government contracts I can give you another POV. On construction contracts we indicate a completion date and include a provision that if the date isn't met (or extended because of circumstances) then the contractor has to pay "liquidated damages" for every day over the completion date. And although I'm not familiar with such, I have heard that our state has awarded road construction contracts that include both the penalty but also incentives for completing early.

[geoffil]

Sometimes even with a contact and specific date, you still have little recourse. Our new house was supposed to be ready in August. We had a date on the contract. As our date approached, the builder said "no can do,,we need another month. " They said they would pay any furniture storage (which they didn't since hubby's company paid for storage). We had to show any receipts of what expenses we were out. We weren't out expenses so much as inconvenience of my daughter having to go to school for a month living in temp housing without a desk, computer, books etc that were all in storage. I had to drive her 30 minutes each way to school and only had a microwave to use for cooking. Our closing attorney said we really could not do anything since a month was so close they were still adhering to the contract. It wasn't worth doing anything because who wants to pursue this when we have all the moving stuff left to do. I hate moving.