Terrorist attack last night in Sweden FAKE NEWS!

[flockofseagulls104]

No, what you've done is to take the city that has perhaps the worst reputation for anti-Semitism in Europe and tried to paint it as representative of the entire continent. In fact, most Swedes in other parts of the country are shocked about the events that take place in Malmo. I agree that city is bad, but it's a mistake to extrapolate that to the entire country or the entire continent.

Oh Good, we get to play another game.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07 ... 08612.html

>>>"France’s politicians and community leaders have criticised the “intolerable” violence against Paris’ Jewish community, after a pro-Palestinian rally led to the vandalizing and looting of Jewish businesses and the burning of cars.



It is the third time in a week where pro-Palestinian activists have clashed with the city’s Jewish residents. On Sunday, locals reported chats of “Gas the Jews” and “Kill the Jews”, as rioters attacked businesses in the Sarcelles district, known as “little Jerusalem”.<<<<

You can quote anecdotes all day. No one is naïve enough to believe that anti-Semitism doesn't exist, in Europe and elsewhere, and that European Jews are understandably leery of anything that might resemble a threat. But how much of that anti-Semitism is due to refugees from Islamic countries and how much due to home-brewed neo-Nazis and similar groups is a different question. What I'd like to see is some actual statistics, rather than cherry picking incidents in a vacuum for the proposition that unchecked immigration threatens to do what generations of skinheads and right-wing hate groups haven't.

That's what the MSM and the dems do all the time on every subject.

[Bob78164]

Bob#'s>>>>"I'm a lot more concerned about the wave of threats right here in the United States, including threats today directed at 11 different Jewish centers. --Bob"

Interesting topic-what evidence do you have that the bulk of these (and other such) threats are not Islamic in origin?

I'm pretty sure these Muslims, at least, had nothing to do with the attacks. --Bob

[Spock]

SSS>>>No, what you've done is to take the city that has perhaps the worst reputation for anti-Semitism in Europe and tried to paint it as representative of the entire continent. In fact, most Swedes in other parts of the country are shocked about the events that take place in Malmo. I agree that city is bad, but it's a mistake to extrapolate that to the entire country or the entire continent.<<<

Going back to this because it kind of came out of left field. This is the first time that you acknowledge any problems in Sweden. If Malmo has the worst reputation for anti-Semitism in Europe, it might have been nice if you had shared that earlier in the thread.

Had you even heard of the Malmo/Rosengard problems a week ago?

What is your source for Malmo having (perhaps) the worst reputation for anti-Semitism in Europe?

[Spock]

SSS>>You can quote anecdotes all day. No one is naïve enough to believe that anti-Semitism doesn't exist, in Europe and elsewhere, and that European Jews are understandably leery of anything that might resemble a threat. But how much of that anti-Semitism is due to refugees from Islamic countries and how much due to home-brewed neo-Nazis and similar groups is a different question. What I'd like to see is some actual statistics, rather than cherry picking incidents in a vacuum for the proposition that unchecked immigration threatens to do what generations of skinheads and right-wing hate groups haven't.<<<

In other words, you have absolutely nothing except, "Oh look, there might be some neo-nazis over there."

[Spock]

Bob#'s>>>>"I'm a lot more concerned about the wave of threats right here in the United States, including threats today directed at 11 different Jewish centers. --Bob"

Interesting topic-what evidence do you have that the bulk of these (and other such) threats are not Islamic in origin?

I'm pretty sure these Muslims, at least, had nothing to do with the attacks. --Bob

Good for them. but it doesn't answer my question. This Muslim probably didn't have anything to do with those threats either. Nothing as wimpy as anonymous threats for this pre-school teacher-she does it right out in the open.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/arlingto ... itic-posts

>>>>An Arlington preschool teacher has been fired over a series of anti-Semitic posts on social media, including a tweet that said “kill some Jews.”

Nancy Salem, who was fired from The Children's Courtyard, also retweeted: “How many Jews died in the Holocaust? Not enough!” <<<<

[silverscreenselect]

In other words, you have absolutely nothing except, "Oh look, there might be some neo-nazis over there."

It's usually the person seeking to impose restrictions on others who has the burden of demonstrating that they pose a threat that justifies such restrictions.

[silverscreenselect]

What is your source for Malmo having (perhaps) the worst reputation for anti-Semitism in Europe?

Here's one fairly reliable source:

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nln ... t=14546401

[Spock]

What is your source for Malmo having (perhaps) the worst reputation for anti-Semitism in Europe?

Here's one fairly reliable source:

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nln ... t=14546401

Yep, I will accept that source.LOL.

[Spock]

In other words, you have absolutely nothing except, "Oh look, there might be some neo-nazis over there."

It's usually the person seeking to impose restrictions on others who has the burden of demonstrating that they pose a threat that justifies such restrictions.

WTF?

[silverscreenselect]

In other words, you have absolutely nothing except, "Oh look, there might be some neo-nazis over there."

It's usually the person seeking to impose restrictions on others who has the burden of demonstrating that they pose a threat that justifies such restrictions.

WTF?

It's called the burden of proof; it's a fundamental part of our jurisprudence in this country. You can't just toss out an anecdote here and there and use it to justify massive restrictions on a group of people.

[Spock]

It's usually the person seeking to impose restrictions on others who has the burden of demonstrating that they pose a threat that justifies such restrictions.

WTF?

It's called the burden of proof; it's a fundamental part of our jurisprudence in this country. You can't just toss out an anecdote here and there and use it to justify massive restrictions on a group of people.

I will take that with a grain of salt from the guy whose fondest wish is to ban civilian ownership of firearms. I think you have been known to toss an anecdote or 2 around on that issue.

[mrkelley23]

What's funny to me as a popcorn-chewing witness to this discussion (and congratulations, BTW, neither Spock nor SSS has descended to flock vs. Bobs name-calling and flamethrowing) (yet) is that, from what I'm reading about Sweden, the Jewish folks living there are much more afraid of what's happening in the Swedish government than they are of the Muslim refugees/immigrants. Don't get me wrong, they're not ignoring what's going on in the immigrant culture, but they know their government has much more power to make things much, much worse.

Which is precisely SSS's fear about the US government. And, to be 100% honest, what I also believe about our current government setup compared to our refugee/immigrant "problem." I know it's a problem in certain parts of the country, and I"m generally sympathetic to efforts to tighten immigration restrictions and careful vetting of refugees. But the governmental structures right now, with a crazy dude in the Presidency and the craven cowards who lead our legislature looking to gain all they can while the crazy dude is distracting the American people, have much more potential for disaster than the other, at least on a national (and global) scale.



(Caveat: I really know nothing about Sweden, save what I've read in the past 48 hours. I could be totally wrong with this analysis.)

[silverscreenselect]

I will take that with a grain of salt from the guy whose fondest wish is to ban civilian ownership of firearms. I think you have been known to toss an anecdote or 2 around on that issue.

And I've also backed them with statistics, something that's conspicuously absent in all your posts on this subject.

[Bob Juch]

I will take that with a grain of salt from the guy whose fondest wish is to ban civilian ownership of firearms. I think you have been known to toss an anecdote or 2 around on that issue.

And I've also backed them with statistics, something that's conspicuously absent in all your posts on this subject.

Such as: Toddlers shot to death more people than Moslems in the U.S. last year.

[jarnon]

Bob#'s>>>>"I'm a lot more concerned about the wave of threats right here in the United States, including threats today directed at 11 different Jewish centers. --Bob"

Interesting topic-what evidence do you have that the bulk of these (and other such) threats are not Islamic in origin?

I'm pretty sure these Muslims, at least, had nothing to do with the attacks. --Bob

VP Pence visited the cemetery today and thanked the Muslim benefactors.

[Spock]

SSS>>>It's called the burden of proof; it's a fundamental part of our jurisprudence in this country. You can't just toss out an anecdote here and there and use it to justify massive restrictions on a group of people.<<<

When Sweden has become the rape capital of the world it might be responsible to slow immigration down for a little and evaluate just what is going on.

When migrants/refugees/immigrants get to Western Europe, they essentially have one job. That job would be "Don't Rape."

When you have to have brochures/classes etc that tell these new residents "Hey guys, it is not really kosher (pun intended) to rape here" there might be a few underlying problems in the whole "Don't Rape" department of the culture that you are letting in en masse.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/worl ... .html?_r=0

A couple of the more interesting quotes from this NYT article.

>>>"“Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,” Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,” at least not by the police."<<<<

>>>>"Henry Ove Berg, who was Stavanger’s police chief during the spike in rape cases, said he supported providing migrants sex education because “people from some parts of the world have never seen a girl in a miniskirt, only in a burqa.” When they get to Norway, he added, “something happens in their heads.”<<<

[silverscreenselect]

When Sweden has become the rape capital of the world it might be responsible to slow immigration down for a little and evaluate just what is going on.

A good explanation of the rape statistics in Sweden. Short answer: Sweden is more aggressive in reporting rapes than are many other countries. Multiple assaults on the same woman are considered multiple rapes here but not in some other countries, and their definition of what actually is a rape is broader than in other countries. The number of rapes reported in 2015 actually went down from the year before even though immigration was at its peak.

http://www.thelocal.se/20170221/why-swe ... -the-world

[Spock]

When Sweden has become the rape capital of the world it might be responsible to slow immigration down for a little and evaluate just what is going on.

A good explanation of the rape statistics in Sweden. Short answer: Sweden is more aggressive in reporting rapes than are many other countries. Multiple assaults on the same woman are considered multiple rapes here but not in some other countries, and their definition of what actually is a rape is broader than in other countries. The number of rapes reported in 2015 actually went down from the year before even though immigration was at its peak.

http://www.thelocal.se/20170221/why-swe ... -the-world

I put that in there because I knew it would get your goat. I am glad that there is no rape crisis in Sweden.

What about the cultural implications of the rest of the stuff in the post?

[Spock]

Just thinking about some more cultural stuff.

Do cultures often have slang terms for rare things and for things that just don't happen?

The slang term for gang rape in the Banlieues (as least the French ones ) is "Tornante".

Banlieues are the un-assimalated Arabic/North African-origin suburbs.

[silverscreenselect]

What about the cultural implications of the rest of the stuff in the post?

Different countries have different cultures; that's a real shock. U.S. businessmen and diplomats routinely get training in the cultures of other countries if they are going to spend substantial amounts of time there. And, on the other hand, a number of U.S. citizens have found out to their dismay that other countries views about everything from drugs to littering aren't as tolerant as they are here.

Here's one thing you didn't quote from that article:

But many question whether there is a clear link between migrants and crime. Last month, the German interior minister, Thomas de Maizière, said that asylum seekers were no more prone to crime, including sexual violence, than Germans. “In general, the available recent trend findings show that refugees commit just as few or as many crimes as groups of the local population,” he said.

And, a personal anecdote. Back in the early 1980s, before I met Mrs. SSS, I went on vacation to Nassau, and, one day, I took an excursion to an out island a few miles away (it had actually been used as a dropoff point during Prohibition for bootleg liquor; the British authorities didn't want bootleggers loading up in the city itself, so they used islands like this one). We took a boat ride to get there, and it was a fairly large boat that could carry a couple of hundred people. It had a top deck that was open to the sun, so I went up there and sat on a lounge chair to soak up some sun. A few minutes later, an attractive woman in her mid/late 20s sat down beside me and, without saying a word, took off her top and remained so attired until we got to the island (she apparently had a boyfriend since I saw her with a guy on the beach at the island). Needless to say, I was rather disconcerted at first, even though neither of us spoke to the other the whole trip. And, if I was a bit thrown by her forwardness, I can just imagine the reaction of some African immigrant in a similar situation.

[Spock]

>>>Different countries have different cultures; that's a real shock. U.S. businessmen and diplomats routinely get training in the cultures of other countries if they are going to spend substantial amounts of time there. And, on the other hand, a number of U.S. citizens have found out to their dismay that other countries views about everything from drugs to littering aren't as tolerant as they are here.
<<<<<<<<<<<

Yep, It's all the same-US Businessmen taking some cultural lessons to do business in Japan equates to:
1)Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,”

2)"When they get to Norway, he added, “something happens in their heads."

In some cultures, they bow instead of shaking hands, in some cultures they can just take a woman if they want to-it's all the same. Who can say which is better?

[silverscreenselect]

In some cultures, they bow instead of shaking hands, in some cultures they can just take a woman if they want to-it's all the same. Who can say which is better?

There are a lot of non-Muslim people in this country who believe that just because a woman dresses provocatively, she's asking for it. Or that if a woman has a few drinks with you, she's asking for it. Or that if a woman starts to fool around with you and then says no and tries to get away, she's asking for it.

Who can say which is better?

[Spock]

In some cultures, they bow instead of shaking hands, in some cultures they can just take a woman if they want to-it's all the same. Who can say which is better?

There are a lot of non-Muslim people in this country who believe that just because a woman dresses provocatively, she's asking for it. Or that if a woman has a few drinks with you, she's asking for it. Or that if a woman starts to fool around with you and then says no and tries to get away, she's asking for it.

Who can say which is better?

SSS>>>And I've also backed them with statistics, something that's conspicuously absent in all your posts on this subject.<<<

I love your data-filled, statistically backed posts such as the one in the quote box. You don't want to talk about Eritrean rape customs, to say nothing of the enlightened practice of cutting off their clits(or worse).

So we are back to "Oh look, over there, some bad things happen in the western world too."

[silverscreenselect]

I love your data-filled, statistically backed posts such as the one in the quote box. You don't want to talk about Eritrean rape customs, to say nothing of the enlightened practice of cutting off their clits(or worse).

So we are back to "Oh look, over there, some bad things happen in the western world too."

No, you've pointed out a lot of bad things about the culture in some Muslim countries. None of which has any bearing about whether refugees from those countries (hint: they are often trying to escape the oppression in their native county) are prone to commit massive acts of violence against Jews, gays, women, or Western Civilization. And the evidence shows they don't commit such crimes to any greater extent than others do.

If we had accepted your line of reasoning, there wouldn't have very many emigrants to this country for hundreds of years, because many of them fled countries that had extremely oppressive cultures.

Every time I attempt to ask you to prove your point, you deflect it with talk about rape-awareness classes.

[Spock]

SSS>>>No, you've pointed out a lot of bad things about the culture in some Muslim countries. None of which has any bearing about whether refugees from those countries (hint: they are often trying to escape the oppression in their native county) are prone to commit massive acts of violence against Jews, gays, women, or Western Civilization. And the evidence shows they don't commit such crimes to any greater extent than others do. <<<<

It is easy to get lost in the migrant/refugee side of this.

However, 2nd and 3rd generations in the un-assimilated banlieues are probably a much harder issue to deal with. They are born in France/Germany/etc, but they are not"French"/"German" etc in any way that we understand the term-Yes, there are exceptions-so, don't go there.

They lack the structure and base of the village/tribe/whatever back home and they pick up the worst of both worlds. They have the pathologies of both the urban gang cultures and the whatever Islamic misogynistic stuff that filters through into the following generations.

It is hard to take this discussion much deeper without developing some common framework. My simplest (and most fun to read) "Ur-Text" on this stuff is Mark Steyn. I would love if those who disagree with me would read Steyn's "America Alone" and "After America." Not that you would suddenly swing to my way of thinking, but at least we could speak the same language. Conversely, I would love to read your "Ur-texts" on this subject.

For example, Mark Steyn often mentions that the 2nd and 3rd generation is far more radicalized and insular than their parents and grandparents who came to Britain/Etc in the 1970's were.

Now from Spock-the general Islamic world has radicalized since the 1970's or whenever those first waves came to Britain/etc-so recent migrants are probably far more radicalized than those waves that came earlier.

One of Steyn's anecdotes that is most telling as to how insular and un-assimilated the 2nd/3rd generations has to do with the marriage patterns of Pakistani Britons in Bradford. Taken from "After America."

>>>By the beginning of the twenty-first century, in the city of Bradford, 75 percent of Pakistani Britons were married to their first cousins. Even the Neanderthal racists warning against the horrors of mass immigration in the late 1960s never thought to predict that in the Yorkshire grade-school classes of the early twenty-first century a majority of the pupils would be the children of first cousins. Yet it happened. <<<

His Source is:Francis Gibb, “Rise in marriages between cousins ‘is putting children’s health at risk’,” The Times, March 20, 2010; available online at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 069255.ece.

>>>British Pakistanis were then officially less than 2 percent of the population, yet accounted for a third of all children born with rare recessive genetic diseases—such as Mucolipidosis Type IV, which affects brain function and prevents the body expelling waste.....Pakistani first-cousin families had two, three, four children born deaf, or blind, or requiring spoon-feeding and dressing their entire lives.<<<<<<

His source is>>>27 Dipesh Gadher, Christopher Morgan and Jonathan Oliver, “Minister warns of ‘inbred’ Muslims,” The Times, February 10, 2008; available online at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/p ... 342040.ece.

Spock again-Data was based on marriage patterns about 15 years ago. I doubt that they have become less insular in the intervening time frame.