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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:12 am 
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...recently that I hadn't considered before. One thing that an extended campaign season, coupled with 24-hour news saturation, has gotten us is a total lack of surprise about our recent Presidents. Anyone who followed the campaign knew that Bill Clinton was a petty liar and a philanderer, in addition to the many good things that he was, even if no one would publicly come out and say it. Anyone who followed the 2000 and 2004 campaigns knew that George W. Bush's main motivations were Big Oil and nationalism, no matter how much lip service he gave to "compassionate conservatism," (anyone remember that one?) and he hasn't disappointed on that end.

Granted that there are some unknowns still in contention, here are some snapshots of realistic appraisals of this year's candidates, for better or worse.

Hillary Clinton -- more dissembling and corruption, coupled with decent executive skills and a pretty darn sharp mind.

Barack Obama -- professorial inclination to say the outrageous thing to inspire discussion -- not exactly the best trait for a politician. Lots of inexperience, for better or worse. Willingness to piss off the conventional types. (See flag saluting, etc.)

John Edwards -- When I first heard him making presidential type speeches 4 or five years ago, the populism sounded forced and fake. Now it sounds natural, but I'm not sure if it's sincere, or he's just had lots of time to practice. Other than that, he's just another Southern White Guy to me.

Mitt Romney -- Probably the best qualified guy to lead the nation right now, IMHO, but I'd love to be the campaign manager against him. I'd just show non-stop Johnn Kerry commercials: another square-jawed Easterner who flip-flopped on every major issue.

Rudy Giulani -- I can't remember the last time I felt such a disconnect between the rhetoric and the actual beliefs of the person. Of course it's part of the political game to occasionally fight for things you don't believe in, but this one almost seems like Rudy's auditioning for a Sylvester Stallone role, after years of playing drag shows.

Mike Huckabee -- I don't care what a nice guy he is, or how affable he can be in a room. He raised his hand when a debate moderator asked who didn't "believe" in evolution.

John McCain -- I'm really sorry, man. You've got more humor, more drive, and more legislative experience than anyone else up there. You got well and truly shafted by Karl Rove in 2000, when you really should have won, and then we wouldn't be in Iraq in the first place. But your time is past, and your record is more of a drag than a boost.


Everyone else in the race is nothing more than a two or three word stereotype to me right now.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:45 am 
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mrkelley23 wrote:
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Hillary Clinton -- more dissembling and corruption, coupled with decent executive skills and a pretty darn sharp mind.

stereotype to me right now.


I like to consider myself pretty open and independent when it comes to evaluating a potential candidate for any office (despite what you may have read as I have posted). And, if Hillary had given me positions on which I agreed with I may have voted for her. And you may be able to say similar things about other candidates but the problems I have with Hillary are:

1 - I simply do not believe anything she says. IMO, she has no credibility. I do not feel that she believes what comes out of her own mouth. Also, IMO, its all speechification drummed up by her managers and backers (Soros and MoveOn, for example). I also feel that her talking points come out like that poor beauty contestant from South Carolina. If she didn't have material written for her that's what she would sound like. I don't feel any conviction in her speeches. She's simply a puppet.

2 - She has no experience in leading or in running anything. I don't feel that the presidency is a place to intern.

3 - She is not Bill. Say what you want about Bill's philandering and crookedness - he was smooth. Kinda like a snake-oil salesman. Bill could steal your wallet while looking you in the eye and telling you what great looking kids you have. Hillary has none of that.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:04 am 
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I feel really apathetic about all of the candidates. Usually by this time, I at least hate somebody, but I find myself not caring most of the time.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:08 am 
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PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
I feel really apathetic about all of the candidates. Usually by this time, I at least hate somebody, but I find myself not caring most of the time.


I'm pretty apathetic about the whole situation right now, probably because of the overexposure.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:16 am 
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earendel wrote:
PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
I feel really apathetic about all of the candidates. Usually by this time, I at least hate somebody, but I find myself not caring most of the time.


I'm pretty apathetic about the whole situation right now, probably because of the overexposure.


The overexposure is going to get worse as the election gets closer.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:46 am 
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One of the things that may actually get the parties to grow a backbone and shorten the campaign season is the competition that's going to be going on in Iowa and New Hampshire for advertising space this Christmas season. I hope so, anyway.

Bring on the rotating regional primaries!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:48 am 
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mrkelley23 wrote:
One of the things that may actually get the parties to grow a backbone and shorten the campaign season is the competition that's going to be going on in Iowa and New Hampshire for advertising space this Christmas season. I hope so, anyway.

Bring on the rotating regional primaries!


Ain't gonna happen. I would have thought that the expanded primary season might have been a daunting challenge given the need to raise more money earlier, but that didn't happen.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:49 am 
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PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
earendel wrote:
PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
I feel really apathetic about all of the candidates. Usually by this time, I at least hate somebody, but I find myself not caring most of the time.


I'm pretty apathetic about the whole situation right now, probably because of the overexposure.


The overexposure is going to get worse as the election gets closer.


That's for sure. At least we've been spared any commercials or candidate visits - Kentucky's primary won't be until May, by which time the candidates will already have been chosen.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:01 pm 
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earendel wrote:
PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
earendel wrote:
PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
I feel really apathetic about all of the candidates. Usually by this time, I at least hate somebody, but I find myself not caring most of the time.


I'm pretty apathetic about the whole situation right now, probably because of the overexposure.


The overexposure is going to get worse as the election gets closer.


That's for sure. At least we've been spared any commercials or candidate visits - Kentucky's primary won't be until May, by which time the candidates will already have been chosen.


I haven't seen any ads yet, but then again, I usually Tivo through the commercials.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:12 pm 
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PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
earendel wrote:
That's for sure. At least we've been spared any commercials or candidate visits - Kentucky's primary won't be until May, by which time the candidates will already have been chosen.

I haven't seen any ads yet, but then again, I usually Tivo through the commercials.

I wish my DVR wouldn't record commercials but it does, so we have to FF through them, meaning that we are exposed to the visual images but not to the audio.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:53 pm 
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In 1968, Bobby Kennedy won the California primary the first week of June, which was a very meaningful election and could well have given him the nomination if he had lived. Back then, California and other states prided themseves on their late position in the primary process, which made their votes meaningful and allowed them to see the way the process was playing out.

Back then, the primary process (and about half the states did not even have primaries, relying on party insiders to pick their delegates) was like the PGA tour, gradually making the rounds from one state to another over a four month period.

Now, everything has been so front loaded and inordinate importance placed on Iowa and New Hampshire that the whole thing might be over by the first week of February. There is a decent chance one or both parties may have a case of buyer's remorse by the time the conventions roll around in August.

It is also distinctly possible that one or both parties may have a split vote in that February super Tuesday, with three or four candidates picking up significant numbers of delegates, in which case the next six months may become quite bitter as they fight over a fairly small number of remaining delegates the next five months leading to a brokered convention.

This is no way to decide the next leader of the country. I would much prefer a tiered system of primaries, about ten states at a time, chosen at random so that there would be a mix of large and small states up for grabs each time, every three or four weeks from early February until May. Iowa and New Hampshire would be upset, but 2% of this country should not wind up determining the candidates for president.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:22 pm 
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mrkelley23 wrote:
Mike Huckabee -- I don't care what a nice guy he is, or how affable he can be in a room. He raised his hand when a debate moderator asked who didn't "believe" in evolution.


Wow, talk about your single issue voter.

Most single issue voters' single issue center round life and death (abortion, Iraq, stem cells, gay rights, etc.) while yours seems to be something that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things for leading a country.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:33 pm 
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Being in Ohio over TG day weekend means respite from those Romney & Giuliani ads that already have been playing in Boston (for benefit of those NH viewers). There have been a few Clinton & Obama ads too, but not nearly so many. I have seen one or two for Edwards & McCain each.

Here in Ohio we're getting ads for somebody who's running for something which don't tell you anything about the candidate except that "he's never missed a vote in 11 years" (or whatever #) & "he's pro-family". These ads are all narrated by said family.

I'd kinda like to see what the anti-family candidates have to say.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:43 pm 
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ghostjmf wrote:
I'd kinda like to see what the anti-family candidates have to say.


Anti-family condidates probably don't fun for office.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:10 pm 
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BackInTex wrote:
mrkelley23 wrote:
Mike Huckabee -- I don't care what a nice guy he is, or how affable he can be in a room. He raised his hand when a debate moderator asked who didn't "believe" in evolution.


Wow, talk about your single issue voter.

Most single issue voters' single issue center round life and death (abortion, Iraq, stem cells, gay rights, etc.) while yours seems to be something that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things for leading a country.
It matters a lot, and it's not a single issue. We live in a complex world in which all decisions are necessarily interrelated. Making good decisions is hard enough even with all of the information available to a fully capable President. This country simply can't afford another President who ignores, disbelieves, and doesn't know how to evaluate evidence that refuses to comport with his predetermined view of the facts. --Bob

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:13 pm 
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BackInTex wrote:
mrkelley23 wrote:
Mike Huckabee -- I don't care what a nice guy he is, or how affable he can be in a room. He raised his hand when a debate moderator asked who didn't "believe" in evolution.


Wow, talk about your single issue voter.

Most single issue voters' single issue center round life and death (abortion, Iraq, stem cells, gay rights, etc.) while yours seems to be something that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things for leading a country.


Actually, I am, at this point, still very much a "single issue" voter for 2008, at least in one respect: I will find it very difficult, if not downright impossible, to vote for any candidate who voted in favor of giving George W. Bush carte blanche to do whatever the heck he wanted to do, up to and including invading a sovereign nation that was not threatening the United States and who had nothing whatsoever to do with our being attacked on 9/11. They abdicated their Consitutional responsibilities with that vote, and I very much believe in Constitutional responsibilities.

My comments about Huckabee were in the same spirit as my "snapshot" comments about the other candidates: a summation of my feelings at this time, not intended to be objective, or fair, or even reasonable. I should add that Huckabee was on the stage with ALL the other Republican candidates when this question was asked, and he was the ONLY one to raise his hand. I don't remember the exact phrasing of the question, and I know this is a sore point between you and me, but remember, this question is the equivalent to me of a candidate being asked, "Do you believe the Earth is flat?" and him/her answering yes. So call it a single issue if you will.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:23 pm 
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Not to influence anybody (as if I could) but over a year ago, on the "On Point" NPR radio show, McCain was asked to elaborate on his previously declared stance that "intelligent design" deserved a place on school curricula alongside evolution, & he said he didn't see any reason it should be excluded from being taught with the same weight given scientifically accepted theories. He wouldn't budge on that one.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:26 pm 
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mrkelley23 wrote:
Huckabee was on the stage with ALL the other Republican candidates when this question was asked, and he was the ONLY one to raise his hand.


I would think you'd value his honesty with the voters. None of the others raised their hands because of exactly your response. Not because of what they believe, but because of what the believe the voters want to hear.

So from that, if he says he is for or against something, you can believe him. I find that refreshing.

If you don't like his political points of view, then O.K. But at least you can believe he believes what he says. I don't think you can of any other candidate.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:31 pm 
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BackInTex wrote:

If you don't like his political points of view, then O.K. But at least you can believe he believes what he says. I don't think you can of any other candidate.


Talk is cheap. I want to be able to look back on what a candidate has actually done in their careers and base a judgment on that. It's easy to say "I'm going to do this or I'm not going to do that" but if your recent history tells a different story I find no credibility in what they say. In this day and age, you have to do your homework in order to vote intelligently. I live by the credo "believe half of what you see and none of what you hear."

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:43 am 
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MrKelley: Everyone else in the race is nothing more than a two or three word stereotype to me right now.

I would never vote for Ron Paul because we're diametrically opposed on so many issues, but I don't find him stereotypical because his position and mine are exactly the same on a few issues. For example, he voted against the Iraq War Resolution and the Patriot Act.

SSS: Now, everything has been so front loaded and inordinate importance placed on Iowa and New Hampshire that the whole thing might be over by the first week of February. There is a decent chance one or both parties may have a case of buyer's remorse by the time the conventions roll around in August.

. . . 2% of this country should not wind up determining the candidates for president.


I agree that there is inordinate importance on Iowa and NH. I want some importance out here in Colorado!!! nownownownow!!!!!!

BiT: If you don't like his political points of view, then O.K. But at least you can believe he believes what he says. I don't think you can of any other candidate.

SirG: Talk is cheap. I want to be able to look back on what a candidate has actually done in their careers and base a judgment on that. It's easy to say "I'm going to do this or I'm not going to do that" but if your recent history tells a different story I find no credibility in what they say. In this day and age, you have to do your homework in order to vote intelligently. I live by the credo "believe half of what you see and none of what you hear."


So what about Ron Paul, Gentlemen? He clearly believes what he says, he's apparently been saying the same things his entire adult life, plus he puts his money where his mouth is, and his vote. Again, I could never support him politically, but he seems to hold the qualities that many of you hold dear, so I wonder why he hasn't garnered your support.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:54 am 
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I am very interested in Ron Paul. I doubt I am his target audience, but I love his honesty and small-central-government approach. Those two qualities would get my vote for many candidates.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:14 pm 
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mrkelley23 wrote:
My comments about Huckabee were in the same spirit as my "snapshot" comments about the other candidates: a summation of my feelings at this time, not intended to be objective, or fair, or even reasonable. I should add that Huckabee was on the stage with ALL the other Republican candidates when this question was asked, and he was the ONLY one to raise his hand.


MrK, you intrigued me (a few days ago) with your post. I do not know if it has been asked since then, but Huckabee was one of three GOP candidates in May 2007 who riased their hands when asked if they beleived in evolution. Sam Brownback and Tom Tancredo also did. (No real surprise with Brownback either. I do not know enough about Tancredo to have known his beliefs.)

Anyway, after the debate, Huckabee said if given a chance to elaborate on the question from MSNBC moderator Chris Matthews, he would have responded: "If you want to believe that you and your family came from apes, I'll accept that....I believe there was a creative process."

Huckabee said he has no problem with teaching evolution as a theory in the public schools and he doesn't expect schools to teach creationism.

"We shouldn't indoctrinate kids in school," he said. "I wouldn't want them teaching creationism as if it's the only thing that they should teach."

Also, students should be given credit for having the intelligence to think through various theories for themselves and come to their own conclusions, he said.

He said it was his responsibility to teach his children his beliefs though he could accept that others believe in evolution.

"I believe that there is a God and that he put the process in motion," Huckabee said.

The former Arkansas governor said about the evolution question: "I'm not sure what in the world that has to do with being president of the United States."


My support for Mike Huckabee right now (and you know that he is sooo happy to have that endorsement to trumpet) is based on the fact that he is so open and honest about his approach to the issues facing this nation. If you want bipartisanship, then he is the guy who can amke it happen.

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Ritterskoop wrote:
I am very interested in Ron Paul. I doubt I am his target audience, but I love his honesty and small-central-government approach. Those two qualities would get my vote for many candidates.


Sorry, I have watched Ron Paul speaking with Tim Russert and Jay Leno.

He is like that crzy uncle that people try to ignore at the holidays.

Not as much as Mike Gravel or Dennis Kuchinich, but of the same ilk.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:05 pm 
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Appa23 wrote:
Anyway, after the debate, Huckabee said if given a chance to elaborate on the question from MSNBC moderator Chris Matthews, he would have responded: "If you want to believe that you and your family came from apes, I'll accept that....I believe there was a creative process."


From the movie, Gettysburg:

Quote:
Major General George E. Pickett: Sirs, perhaps there are those among you who believe you are descended from a ape. I suppose there may even be those among you who believe that I am descended from a ape. But I challenge the man to step forward who believes that General Robert E. Lee is descended from an ape.


http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0107007/quotes


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Appa:

In the debate I saw, Huckabee wsa the only one who raised his hand. Whether that represents courage, conviction, or something else, I'm not sure. But his explanation troubles me almost as much as the raised hand. The fact that an educated minister (Baptist, isn't he?) clearly doesn't understand what the theory of evolution says (nowhere does evolution claim that humans descended from apes, or came from apes, or whatever his wording was) belies his disingenuous comments about school children being able to "think theories through." If you don't understand what the theory is in the first place, it's difficult to make judgments about it.

If he's not sure what the "belief" in evolution has to do with being president of the United States, perhaps he could explain to me what partial-birth abortion, same-sex marriage, public education, etc. have to do with it, as well.

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