Freeh report on Sandusky/PSU

[BigDrawMan]

I disagree with your premise that, somehow, the NCAA has a way of deterring big colleges from engaging in this sort of behavior. If the example you cite does show up, then QB, coach, AD, and president should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of THE LAW, because that is what they have broken. I've not seen the very thick book from the NCAA about its rules, but I'd bet pretty good money that it neither has sections on covering up child molestations or moving dead bodies.

Most people in favor of the NCAA taking punitive action is because this is about "lack of institutional control." If that's the case, then what if it had been an English professor, the department chair, the dean and the president? Should they kill the football program at that university?

The flip side of the "send a message" deterrent argument is the just-as-strong argument that the next university that decides to engage in a coverup will just be much more careful about leaving any kind of evidence behind. Do you truly think Watergate has prevented Presidential staffs from engaging in coverups (Whitewater, anyone? OK, in SSS's case, Abu Ghraib, anyone?)?


..................

The ncaa only has jurisdiction over the athletic department, not academic depts.

When the ncaa does sanction a school, the perps are usually gone by that point. They punish the school, as they are a stationary target. And, they are responsible for what goes on in their athletic departments. Obviously, those who are still left suffer the penalties, while pete carroll signs with seattle. The reason the schools are punished, is because they broke rules they promised not to break. That simple.

It will be interesting to see what happens if the ncaa does issue a severe punishment, since it isnt clear if the rules allow it. Will PennSt fight it in court? That cant end well, or soon, no matter the outcome.

speaking of institutional control...

when spanier and curley went to joepa's house in 2004ish to "ask" joe to resign, he told them to get off his lawn.
when there was a flurry of fights/public drunkeness/misdemeanors committed by penn st players in the mid 2000s, the women in charge of student affairs acted to discipline the players, joe told her to get off his lawn.

[Weyoun]

The problem is, the NCAA actually has no claim to authority here.

The NCAA exists to regulate amateur athletic competitions. Even the really stupid stuff, like tattoos and telling a school they can't be the Fighting Sioux have to do with what happens on the field, between two schools fielding, in theory, teams of amateur student athletes.

So while it is regrettable that punishing a school tends to punish athletes who weren't even involved, there's at least a constraining limit on what the NCAA can do.

What if JoePa's wife ran a meth lab? Penn State would cover that up, too, for all the reasons you give concerning Big Time College Football. Do you nuke the program then? After all, if JoePa were a measly sociology prof, his wife would have been hung out to dry.

The Baylor case uncovered a ton of violations; the Carlton Dotson case is what led journalists and the NCAA into looking into Baylor's program. I mean I suppose we could say "lack of institutional control" gives the NCAA a window into acting, but since when were you a fan of giving an executive authority such unchecked power?

[DevilKitty100]

I disagree with your premise that, somehow, the NCAA has a way of deterring big colleges from engaging in this sort of behavior. If the example you cite does show up, then QB, coach, AD, and president should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of THE LAW, because that is what they have broken. I've not seen the very thick book from the NCAA about its rules, but I'd bet pretty good money that it neither has sections on covering up child molestations or moving dead bodies.

Most people in favor of the NCAA taking punitive action is because this is about "lack of institutional control." If that's the case, then what if it had been an English professor, the department chair, the dean and the president? Should they kill the football program at that university?

The flip side of the "send a message" deterrent argument is the just-as-strong argument that the next university that decides to engage in a coverup will just be much more careful about leaving any kind of evidence behind. Do you truly think Watergate has prevented Presidential staffs from engaging in coverups (Whitewater, anyone? OK, in SSS's case, Abu Ghraib, anyone?)?


..................

The ncaa only has jurisdiction over the athletic department, not academic depts.

When the ncaa does sanction a school, the perps are usually gone by that point. They punish the school, as they are a stationary target. And, they are responsible for what goes on in their athletic departments. Obviously, those who are still left suffer the penalties, while pete carroll signs with seattle. The reason the schools are punished, is because they broke rules they promised not to break. That simple.

It will be interesting to see what happens if the ncaa does issue a severe punishment, since it isnt clear if the rules allow it. Will PennSt fight it in court? That cant end well, or soon, no matter the outcome.

speaking of institutional control...

when spanier and curley went to joepa's house in 2004ish to "ask" joe to resign, he told them to get off his lawn.
when there was a flurry of fights/public drunkeness/misdemeanors committed by penn st players in the mid 2000s, the women in charge of student affairs acted to discipline the players, joe told her to get off his lawn.

I like it! I really like it..........the "get off my lawn" part, I mean. Occasionally "get fucked" is simply too mundane.

Will remember......get off my lawn.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Will remember......get off my lawn.

Worked (with some embelishment) for Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino.

[SportsFan68]

. . .

And then there's the fact that you're telling completely random people to suffer to make us all feel better. You're a 58 year old African American gentleman who makes money on the side working PSU games in the fall. Or you're a family who leases your parking lot for games. But your school harbored a child molester, so you'll just have to do without Christmas this year, sorry.
. . .

That's insulting, Weyoun, speaking on behalf of myself and millions of Americans who have taken a second job to have a nicer Christmas or vacation, or in my case and others, to cover the mortgage during a temporary difficult situation, or in others still, to keep our families fed, housed, and clothed. Do you think our resourcefulness is so limited that a college football-related job is the only option for us random people?

[Weyoun]

. . .

And then there's the fact that you're telling completely random people to suffer to make us all feel better. You're a 58 year old African American gentleman who makes money on the side working PSU games in the fall. Or you're a family who leases your parking lot for games. But your school harbored a child molester, so you'll just have to do without Christmas this year, sorry.
. . .

That's insulting, Weyoun, speaking on behalf of myself and millions of Americans who have taken a second job to have a nicer Christmas or vacation, or in my case and others, to cover the mortgage during a temporary difficult situation, or in others still, to keep our families fed, housed, and clothed. Do you think our resourcefulness is so limited that a college football-related job is the only option for us random people?

Oh get off your high horse. You're saying that you could just lose a second job like that, in a university town in the middle of rural PA where football is big business, and just find another one somewhere? I don't believe you. And if you find that job, great, but not everyone can or will.

Don't put words in my mouth! I'm not saying you, or anyone else, isn't resourceful, but when you destroy a major job creator in a town you just don't have a new job magically appear.

Honestly, that post of yours was totally out of line and completely ridiculous.

[SportsFan68]

. . .

And then there's the fact that you're telling completely random people to suffer to make us all feel better. You're a 58 year old African American gentleman who makes money on the side working PSU games in the fall. Or you're a family who leases your parking lot for games. But your school harbored a child molester, so you'll just have to do without Christmas this year, sorry.
. . .

That's insulting, Weyoun, speaking on behalf of myself and millions of Americans who have taken a second job to have a nicer Christmas or vacation, or in my case and others, to cover the mortgage during a temporary difficult situation, or in others still, to keep our families fed, housed, and clothed. Do you think our resourcefulness is so limited that a college football-related job is the only option for us random people?

Oh get off your high horse. You're saying that you could just lose a second job like that, in a university town in the middle of rural PA where football is big business, and just find another one somewhere? I don't believe you. And if you find that job, great, but not everyone can or will.

Don't put words in my mouth! I'm not saying you, or anyone else, isn't resourceful, but when you destroy a major job creator in a town you just don't have a new job magically appear.

Honestly, that post of yours was totally out of line and completely ridiculous.

If it was so "out of line and completely ridiculous," what made you take the time and energy to even reply to it, much less formulate such a thoughtful and calculated response?

No, a new job won't magically appear, and I did not say that. What I hope I said was that people already resourceful enough to be working a second job will find another one, and that you were insulting us by saying we wouldn't.

I did not put words in your mouth, that's why I asked you "Do you think ... ?" Thank you for the reply, you agree that all of us who have worked a second job are resourceful and that your remarks were totally out of line and ridiculous. KIDDING! Now that's putting words in your mouth.

To reply to your remark about not believing me about finding another job "in a university town in the middle of rural PA where football is big business," I live in a rural town where tourism is big business which has hit hard by the economic downturn, and I promise you that anyone who wants a job here can have one. People who are willing to take a second job type of job are in great demand. It's the full-time, full benefits job that are in short supply, jobs which, as far as I can tell, you are not talking about. So don't believe me, but if you accept the comparison, yes, you could lose a second job like that, and while another one wouldn't magically appear, you could soon find another one.

[Weyoun]

That's insulting, Weyoun, speaking on behalf of myself and millions of Americans who have taken a second job to have a nicer Christmas or vacation, or in my case and others, to cover the mortgage during a temporary difficult situation, or in others still, to keep our families fed, housed, and clothed. Do you think our resourcefulness is so limited that a college football-related job is the only option for us random people?

Oh get off your high horse. You're saying that you could just lose a second job like that, in a university town in the middle of rural PA where football is big business, and just find another one somewhere? I don't believe you. And if you find that job, great, but not everyone can or will.

Don't put words in my mouth! I'm not saying you, or anyone else, isn't resourceful, but when you destroy a major job creator in a town you just don't have a new job magically appear.

Honestly, that post of yours was totally out of line and completely ridiculous.

If it was so "out of line and completely ridiculous," what made you take the time and energy to even reply to it, much less formulate such a thoughtful and calculated response?

No, a new job won't magically appear, and I did not say that. What I hope I said was that people already resourceful enough to be working a second job will find another one, and that you were insulting us by saying we wouldn't.

I did not put words in your mouth, that's why I asked you "Do you think ... ?" Thank you for the reply, you agree that all of us who have worked a second job are resourceful and that your remarks were totally out of line and ridiculous. KIDDING! Now that's putting words in your mouth.

To reply to your remark about not believing me about finding another job "in a university town in the middle of rural PA where football is big business," I live in a rural town where tourism is big business which has hit hard by the economic downturn, and I promise you that anyone who wants a job here can have one. People who are willing to take a second job type of job are in great demand. It's the full-time, full benefits job that are in short supply, jobs which, as far as I can tell, you are not talking about. So don't believe me, but if you accept the comparison, yes, you could lose a second job like that, and while another one wouldn't magically appear, you could soon find another one.

If you are saying that Penn State's football program can be nuked and there would be no economic consequences for working class folk in central PA, then we have an argument. If we are arguing the particulars of one person's situation versus another then we're just going to waste each other's time with counterexamples. I maintain that it would hit the town pretty hard, and BOTH side jobs and full benefit jobs would be reduced. I'm sure Person X could find a job, but if it's a family restaurant that depends on those big money weekends, it's not clear to me how they would recoup that. It's not clear to me how this bar, or this hotel, or this souvenir shop, would do in such a circumstance.

Since you live in a town driven by tourism, I assume you realize that things were better, and there were more jobs, before the recession. Now imagine your town if the primary reason for tourism was removed entirely. How would that work out? That's what some are suggesting for State College.

But please don't claim I am insulting you, or anyone, because I am making the completely unextraordinary claim that taking away a major job creator would hit State College hard. I'm sure some people are resourceful and make do, but on the balance, no, the economy would not be as strong. I don't doubt that people in tough circumstances try to make things work, but sometimes the opportunities are just not there.

[SportsFan68]

Oh get off your high horse. You're saying that you could just lose a second job like that, in a university town in the middle of rural PA where football is big business, and just find another one somewhere? I don't believe you. And if you find that job, great, but not everyone can or will.

Don't put words in my mouth! I'm not saying you, or anyone else, isn't resourceful, but when you destroy a major job creator in a town you just don't have a new job magically appear.

Honestly, that post of yours was totally out of line and completely ridiculous.

If it was so "out of line and completely ridiculous," what made you take the time and energy to even reply to it, much less formulate such a thoughtful and calculated response?

No, a new job won't magically appear, and I did not say that. What I hope I said was that people already resourceful enough to be working a second job will find another one, and that you were insulting us by saying we wouldn't.

I did not put words in your mouth, that's why I asked you "Do you think ... ?" Thank you for the reply, you agree that all of us who have worked a second job are resourceful and that your remarks were totally out of line and ridiculous. KIDDING! Now that's putting words in your mouth.

To reply to your remark about not believing me about finding another job "in a university town in the middle of rural PA where football is big business," I live in a rural town where tourism is big business which has hit hard by the economic downturn, and I promise you that anyone who wants a job here can have one. People who are willing to take a second job type of job are in great demand. It's the full-time, full benefits job that are in short supply, jobs which, as far as I can tell, you are not talking about. So don't believe me, but if you accept the comparison, yes, you could lose a second job like that, and while another one wouldn't magically appear, you could soon find another one.

If you are saying that Penn State's football program can be nuked and there would be no economic consequences for working class folk in central PA, then we have an argument. If we are arguing the particulars of one person's situation versus another then we're just going to waste each other's time with counterexamples. I maintain that it would hit the town pretty hard, and BOTH side jobs and full benefit jobs would be reduced. I'm sure Person X could find a job, but if it's a family restaurant that depends on those big money weekends, it's not clear to me how they would recoup that. It's not clear to me how this bar, or this hotel, or this souvenir shop, would do in such a circumstance.

Since you live in a town driven by tourism, I assume you realize that things were better, and there were more jobs, before the recession. Now imagine your town if the primary reason for tourism was removed entirely. How would that work out? That's what some are suggesting for State College.

But please don't claim I am insulting you, or anyone, because I am making the completely unextraordinary claim that taking away a major job creator would hit State College hard. I'm sure some people are resourceful and make do, but on the balance, no, the economy would not be as strong. I don't doubt that people in tough circumstances try to make things work, but sometimes the opportunities are just not there.

We don't have an argument. I agree with what you say here. Thank you for taking the time to clarify your position.

[tlynn78]

I would be willing to support a one year ban for Penn State's football program just as soon as someone tells the Catholic church they can't hold services for one year.

This.

t.

[silverscreenselect]

Three more men have come forward with accusations against Sandusky dating back to the 1970s.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index. ... e_men.html

[Weyoun]

If it was so "out of line and completely ridiculous," what made you take the time and energy to even reply to it, much less formulate such a thoughtful and calculated response?

No, a new job won't magically appear, and I did not say that. What I hope I said was that people already resourceful enough to be working a second job will find another one, and that you were insulting us by saying we wouldn't.

I did not put words in your mouth, that's why I asked you "Do you think ... ?" Thank you for the reply, you agree that all of us who have worked a second job are resourceful and that your remarks were totally out of line and ridiculous. KIDDING! Now that's putting words in your mouth.

To reply to your remark about not believing me about finding another job "in a university town in the middle of rural PA where football is big business," I live in a rural town where tourism is big business which has hit hard by the economic downturn, and I promise you that anyone who wants a job here can have one. People who are willing to take a second job type of job are in great demand. It's the full-time, full benefits job that are in short supply, jobs which, as far as I can tell, you are not talking about. So don't believe me, but if you accept the comparison, yes, you could lose a second job like that, and while another one wouldn't magically appear, you could soon find another one.

If you are saying that Penn State's football program can be nuked and there would be no economic consequences for working class folk in central PA, then we have an argument. If we are arguing the particulars of one person's situation versus another then we're just going to waste each other's time with counterexamples. I maintain that it would hit the town pretty hard, and BOTH side jobs and full benefit jobs would be reduced. I'm sure Person X could find a job, but if it's a family restaurant that depends on those big money weekends, it's not clear to me how they would recoup that. It's not clear to me how this bar, or this hotel, or this souvenir shop, would do in such a circumstance.

Since you live in a town driven by tourism, I assume you realize that things were better, and there were more jobs, before the recession. Now imagine your town if the primary reason for tourism was removed entirely. How would that work out? That's what some are suggesting for State College.

But please don't claim I am insulting you, or anyone, because I am making the completely unextraordinary claim that taking away a major job creator would hit State College hard. I'm sure some people are resourceful and make do, but on the balance, no, the economy would not be as strong. I don't doubt that people in tough circumstances try to make things work, but sometimes the opportunities are just not there.

We don't have an argument. I agree with what you say here. Thank you for taking the time to clarify your position.

No worries, and hopefully no hard feelings all around.

[kayrharris]

Three more men have come forward with accusations against Sandusky dating back to the 1970s.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index. ... e_men.html

I wondered how long it would be before this happened. I have a feeling there are a lot more victims out there.

kay

[Weyoun]

Three more men have come forward with accusations against Sandusky dating back to the 1970s.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index. ... e_men.html

I wondered how long it would be before this happened. I have a feeling there are a lot more victims out there.

kay

Yeah, one just doesn't start pedophiling at age 40, I am afraid. He had access to all the facilities, like the Second Mike, going back to the 1970s.

[Buffacuse]

NCAA Prez gave an interview on PBS last night saying the PSU situation is "unprecedented" and worse than anything that has happened before in college sports. He specifically refused to rule out the death penalty and said he is waiting to hear PSU's official reaction to the Freeh report before deciding what to do. He also noted that previous punishments don't apply here because this in not anything like the impermissible benefits scandals at SMU and elsewhere.

SMU got the death penalty and he is saying this is worse...

My take: NCAA is telling PSU..."If you don't suspend your program for a year we will do it for you and maybe for a lot longer."

[Paucle]

I would be willing to support a one year ban for Penn State's football program just as soon as someone tells the Catholic church they can't hold services for one year.

Bad analogy.
All the Catholic Church? Then ban all of College Football for one year. The equivalent would be, ban Catholic services in Parishes where priests are "caught."

[Buffacuse]

This is going to be blunt and direct:

If Sandusky's victims are sitting at home this fall and turn on their TVs and see a stadium full of screaming, happy Penn State football fans with the cheerleaders and band leading them out on the field waving their flags...

...they will have been raped again.

[littlebeast13]

This is going to be blunt and direct:

If Sandusky's victims are sitting at home this fall and turn on their TVs and see a stadium full of screaming, happy Penn State football fans with the cheerleaders and band leading them out on the field waving their flags...

...they will have been raped again.

I'm a pretty fervent opponent of Big Time College Football® (And basketball), and would love to see anything up to and including shuttering the Nittany Lioned gates at PSU (Sorry christie)....

But that is one of the grossest overstatements I have ever heard..... which is saying something.

Unless you are one of Sandusky's victims yourself. In that case, then I guess you're entitled to your opinion about how you'd feel seeing PSU football again.....

lb13

[silverscreenselect]

But that is one of the grossest overstatements I have ever heard..... which is saying something.

It may be an overstatement but I've heard similar comments from a number of sexual assault victims. And there's a number of people that still harbor very bad feelings towards the Catholic Church because of what happened to them.

[BigDrawMan]

NCAA Prez gave an interview on PBS last night saying the PSU situation is "unprecedented" and worse than anything that has happened before in college sports. He specifically refused to rule out the death penalty and said he is waiting to hear PSU's official reaction to the Freeh report before deciding what to do. He also noted that previous punishments don't apply here because this in not anything like the impermissible benefits scandals at SMU and elsewhere.

SMU got the death penalty and he is saying this is worse...

My take: NCAA is telling PSU..."If you don't suspend your program for a year we will do it for you and maybe for a lot longer."

................................

Not much has changed in the Penn St community, they are still in Protect The Football Program At All Costs mode.

The argument against the death penalty-that it would hurt innocent people- is the same one that allowed Sandusky to rape boys for an extra 14 years.
The Program cant be hurt. If it cant be swept under the rug, get a bigger rug.

If the death penalty is imposed, would Penn St have the stones to fight it in court?? That wont find much sympathy.

NCAA penalties get more severe the higher up the ladder they find the wrongdoers, I dont recall any going up to the Universtity president.

[Buffacuse]

But that is one of the grossest overstatements I have ever heard..... which is saying something.

It may be an overstatement but I've heard similar comments from a number of sexual assault victims. And there's a number of people that still harbor very bad feelings towards the Catholic Church because of what happened to them.

LB--You're right, it was a gross overstatement--but as SSS noted, I was reflecting similar comments I've heard from assault victims.

I have been astounded over the past few days at what I've heard from people trying to justify the continuation of the PSU football program this year--my favorite: it might impact the integrity of the BCS process if they don't play their games.

I suppose I could have said assaulted instead of raped. Actually, violated might have been more accurate than either. I have had a gut-level emotional reaction to this situation that may in part be due to the fact that I spent years taking my very vulnerable, disabled kid to camps and places where something like this could have happened--and many of these kids were neglected and of course mine was not.

Honestly didn't mean to offend but rather wanted to convey what I view as the preposterous nature of some of the discussion (not necessarily here on the Bored, but everywhere) about possilble PSU sanctions--I can not imagine six weekends this year of happy revelry on national television in a building adjacent to where this program allowed kids to be raped in showers.

If I was a college president with PSU on the schedule, I would forfeit the game rather than play them. Unless the PSU Board of Trustees suspends the season, they are demonstrating yet again that money and the culture of reverence for football are more important than the kids who were destroyed.

[littlebeast13]

But that is one of the grossest overstatements I have ever heard..... which is saying something.

It may be an overstatement but I've heard similar comments from a number of sexual assault victims. And there's a number of people that still harbor very bad feelings towards the Catholic Church because of what happened to them.

LB--You're right, it was a gross overstatement--but as SSS noted, I was reflecting similar comments I've heard from assault victims.

Sorry, but pet peeve #312789033 for me is that I dislike it when people try to speak up for people who they can not possibly relate to. Some people who have never set foot in a Mecca, let alone worked at one, think I should feel like a imprisoned slave having to work there. It just pisses me off when people over-generalize a situation for a group of people whose shoes they have never taken a step in.... as Chukwuma Charles Soludo would say, "How dare they!"

I have no doubt there are child rape victims who would feel exactly as you say. But I am also pretty sure there are those who would be willing to turn the other cheek (with or without a civil settlement). And probably a range of emotions in between. Who knows how many really think what....

lb13

[Weyoun]

I've said much of my peace above - suffice it to say, I think that the cult of Paterno needs to end, but that doesn't mean you cancel football season. At some point, life must go on. Do people just act miserable forever? Can PSU play football again in ten years? Why not eight or five? Why should people who actually weren't involved be punished?

If the point is to prove some point about the overimportance of college football, then I disagree that this is somehow something that college football caused. It is true that Paterno had special influence at his school, but that reflects a very old school model, a model of college football arguably before it became big business. Big name coaches like Pete Carroll and Jim Tressel either left or were fired because of far more minor scandals, and even Bobby Bowden got showed the door. The era of a coach running a school is over. I think the situation at PSU is partly skewed because it WAS Paterno, who was important to the school in a lot of ways outside of football. If this happened at my school, it would be a shock, but there would be no kids guarding a statue of the coach, because there would be no statue.

The problem then isn't football, but the Paterno worship.

And I would suggest that the cover up falls to even more basic human flaws. Some people do not want to be courageous. Some do not want to take a stand. Some would like the unpleasant stuff go away. We see this stuff everywhere, even when the stakes seem a lot less important.

LA this year has been dealing with a teacher scandal:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/ ... -case?lite

This guy was molesting for maybe thirty years! Another teacher was helping him! There is reason to think certain school officials suspected something was wrong, and even how they handled this guy's firing was a mess. Basically the new superintendent came in and cleaned house.

But, obviously, we are not going to stop educating kids in LA. We're going to continue to use the building, and kids will play in the playground, because life must go on. You have to adjust somehow, as shocking as everything is. But I think an important part of that is trying to find the normal things in life and appreciate what you do have.

[Sistine Fanny]

This is going to be blunt and direct:

If Sandusky's victims are sitting at home this fall and turn on their TVs and see a stadium full of screaming, happy Penn State football fans with the cheerleaders and band leading them out on the field waving their flags...

...they will have been raped again.

This is ridiculous and insulting.

Comparing seeing football fans and cheerleaders on tv with being raped makes it painfully obvious that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.

So if they don't see football fans and cheerleaders for a year, then everything will magically be okay? Or do you raze the entire campus and then salt the earth so that nothing can grow?

I'd imagine that most of them don't give a shit about seeing fans, cheerleaders, bands and flags because that's meaningless. And maybe quite a few of them will enjoy watching the team get their asses kicked, knowing that the program is a mere shell of its former self due in large part to the transgressions that occurred.

Finally, they're not victims. They are people who have been victimized. As long as people like yourself keep labeling them as victims due to some misguided and ignorant feelings of righteous indignation, it makes it harder for them to move on and realize their fullest potential.

Living well is the best revenge....

PS I know that you think you're showing sensitivity and sticking up for these individuals and I do applaud you for that. But you shouldn't presume to know what anybody feels or how they process things.

[ne1410s]

Let every Penn State football player transfer with no time penalty. (If they transfer "down" I don't think there is a waiting period anyway.)