(2015) RIP Cecil the lion
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
Just another guy beating the dead lion. Found this on the BBC (an obscure media site.)
A reasoned response from someone with years of experience of on-the-ground conservation in Africa. A lead "Cecil" researcher, personally does not like lion hunting, but is opposed to a hunting ban. This doesn't quite fit the social media/Jimmy Kimmel narrative.
However, the real reason to watch the 2-minute video is that the BBC shows the secure(?) boundary line between the park and the adjacent hunting land. I have maintained from the beginning that if Cecil lived close enough to the boundary to smell the bait-that part of his natural home territory was outside the park.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-33807477
A reasoned response from someone with years of experience of on-the-ground conservation in Africa. A lead "Cecil" researcher, personally does not like lion hunting, but is opposed to a hunting ban. This doesn't quite fit the social media/Jimmy Kimmel narrative.
However, the real reason to watch the 2-minute video is that the BBC shows the secure(?) boundary line between the park and the adjacent hunting land. I have maintained from the beginning that if Cecil lived close enough to the boundary to smell the bait-that part of his natural home territory was outside the park.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-33807477
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
One thing that the "Boundary Video" in the previous post did not show was the line of villages (maybe 5 miles away) moving ever closer to the park boundary.
There is a "Dog that hasn't barked, yet" for me in the dominant narrative. What happened to the Government Game Scout? Obviously, the Ricky Gervais/Jimmy Kimmel/Social Media narrative doesn't have to account for him-because they don't know he is there.
We were always accompanied by this game warden and when we jumped to village land-their equivalent guy came along. Where was he during all this.
There is a "Dog that hasn't barked, yet" for me in the dominant narrative. What happened to the Government Game Scout? Obviously, the Ricky Gervais/Jimmy Kimmel/Social Media narrative doesn't have to account for him-because they don't know he is there.
We were always accompanied by this game warden and when we jumped to village land-their equivalent guy came along. Where was he during all this.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
So I guess it's everyone's fault that this lion is dead except for the guy who actually shot the lion.Spock wrote:One thing that the "Boundary Video" in the previous post did not show was the line of villages (maybe 5 miles away) moving ever closer to the park boundary.
There is a "Dog that hasn't barked, yet" for me in the dominant narrative. What happened to the Government Game Scout? Obviously, the Ricky Gervais/Jimmy Kimmel/Social Media narrative doesn't have to account for him-because they don't know he is there.
We were always accompanied by this game warden and when we jumped to village land-their equivalent guy came along. Where was he during all this.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-33807477
Bronkhorst (the PH) is claiming that he never heard of Cecil. Now, obviously he has been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion and that is that. But I was ruminating today under what circumstances might he Not have heard of the lion. Not defending Bronkhorst-just speculating on some things.
There is a key area of this-that I have not seen discussed-mainly because the dominant narrative is not capable of understanding that this is a question.
Is this particular area, Bronkhorst's particular stomping ground, or does he jump around a lot? One client here, another in southeast Zimbabwe, another here and another there. These guys are pretty nomadic-they will take clients wherever they can get a slot or quota. The biggest surprise to me from my trip is that you can't count on hunting a particular area. You might be moved before, or even during, the hunt.
If this isn't his main stomping grounds, it becomes more possible that he had never heard of this lion.
The strong pushback against the dominant narrative from black Zimbabweans, who are offended by the offered condolences, indicates that 99.99 (or more) percent of black Zimbabweans had never heard of him. This factor starts to put a ceiling on the local fame of the lion.
Warning-another boring personal African anecdote. I have been to Hwange National Park and I had never heard of him. Granted, we were on the northern end of the park and the highlighted activities took place in the southeast (I think). However, when we drove past the ranger station-the guide didn't say something like "Cecil was out today".
My black Zimbabwean PH conducts both hunting and photographic tours throughout Zimbabwe.Half their job is telling stories and he never mentioned anything about this famous lion in Hwange. We had plenty of down days and if Cecil was a big deal to him he might have advised us to go down there. S
During transit-I talked to people both going and coming from Hwange. Nobody mentioned this famous lion that they got great pics of. I know this is a personal anecdote-but it starts to put a ceiling on how famous he actually was in the area. I suspect he was known to a subset of Hwange tourists who visit a particular lodge or something.
Bronkhorst (the PH) is claiming that he never heard of Cecil. Now, obviously he has been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion and that is that. But I was ruminating today under what circumstances might he Not have heard of the lion. Not defending Bronkhorst-just speculating on some things.
There is a key area of this-that I have not seen discussed-mainly because the dominant narrative is not capable of understanding that this is a question.
Is this particular area, Bronkhorst's particular stomping ground, or does he jump around a lot? One client here, another in southeast Zimbabwe, another here and another there. These guys are pretty nomadic-they will take clients wherever they can get a slot or quota. The biggest surprise to me from my trip is that you can't count on hunting a particular area. You might be moved before, or even during, the hunt.
If this isn't his main stomping grounds, it becomes more possible that he had never heard of this lion.
The strong pushback against the dominant narrative from black Zimbabweans, who are offended by the offered condolences, indicates that 99.99 (or more) percent of black Zimbabweans had never heard of him. This factor starts to put a ceiling on the local fame of the lion.
Warning-another boring personal African anecdote. I have been to Hwange National Park and I had never heard of him. Granted, we were on the northern end of the park and the highlighted activities took place in the southeast (I think). However, when we drove past the ranger station-the guide didn't say something like "Cecil was out today".
My black Zimbabwean PH conducts both hunting and photographic tours throughout Zimbabwe.Half their job is telling stories and he never mentioned anything about this famous lion in Hwange. We had plenty of down days and if Cecil was a big deal to him he might have advised us to go down there. S
During transit-I talked to people both going and coming from Hwange. Nobody mentioned this famous lion that they got great pics of. I know this is a personal anecdote-but it starts to put a ceiling on how famous he actually was in the area. I suspect he was known to a subset of Hwange tourists who visit a particular lodge or something.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
Anybody ever thought about the potentially fatal flaw in the "Tame" lion argument? He was not a tame lion-he was just acclimated to people.
Cecil was rapidly approaching the end of his natural lifespan. Probably soon to be kicked out of his pride etc. At that point, he can't hunt buffalo anymore-And he is not scared of people. Sounds like a lion who might head for easy food in the villages-Goats, Children etc.
There is precedent for this with my earlier post in this thread with the collared lion taking out the 7 Year Old boy in the villages last year.
It is not good for conservation to have lions taking out villagers.
Cecil was rapidly approaching the end of his natural lifespan. Probably soon to be kicked out of his pride etc. At that point, he can't hunt buffalo anymore-And he is not scared of people. Sounds like a lion who might head for easy food in the villages-Goats, Children etc.
There is precedent for this with my earlier post in this thread with the collared lion taking out the 7 Year Old boy in the villages last year.
It is not good for conservation to have lions taking out villagers.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
20/20 on ABC tonight will be about Cecil and Dr. Palmer (just when this topic was losing steam).
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
This is a 2 degrees of Walter Palmer story.
There is a wealthy guy(prob mid 60's or so) who owns an insurance brokerage of some sort in a town about 30 miles away. He lives in the same county as us also about 30 miles away.
He has been to Africa at least 30 times, plus big-game hunting elsewhere as well. His whole house and grounds are Africa themed. The name of the property is "Nyamza de Simba" or something like that meaning "House of Lions". He has an Africa shaped pond on the grounds and God knows how much taxidermy,collectible rifles and commissioned paintings in the house. He hired one of the best-known outdoor painters for a month to paint a wall with an Africa theme. Anyway, that is the kind of place it it
-And yes, he is a little arrogant. Last year on the tour, I tried to ask him if he had ever been to the area of Zimbabwe that I had been-His answer was "I have been to Africa over 30 times so I have been all over"-Well, I didn't ask you how many times you have been to Africa. I asked if you had ever been to Matetsi. But anyway.
He makes a practice of inviting his customers and neighbors every August for a tour of the property and a free supper. We are not customers and had never been invited. However, after my 2013 hunt, I joined the Safari Club International(SCI) and he also invites Minnesota SCI members as the event is also a fundraiser for Disabled American Veterans or other related groups-When I saw the "total raised" sign-fairly early in the evening it looked like about $100,000. Obviously, (myself excluded) the SCI membership base skews fairly high on the wealth scales. I remember last year that it was also in the 6 figure range.
Anyway, Mrs S and I went last year, and this year we brought the 2 youngest to see it. Will we go next year? Good supper, but once you have seen to mounts twice=not really a reason to draw you back. No one will be surprised that my favorite thing in the house is his "Africana" bookcase.
Anyway, not many people reach that level and they tend to know each other.. I am guessing that he (or other bigwigs) with Minnesota SCI have talked with Palmer about the incident. We did a self-tour this year and I am sure that I overheard somebody telling the story, but I did not want to look like I was eavesdropping-so I moseyed along slowly.
The owner was quoted in an early newspaper article on the Palmer deal.
There is a wealthy guy(prob mid 60's or so) who owns an insurance brokerage of some sort in a town about 30 miles away. He lives in the same county as us also about 30 miles away.
He has been to Africa at least 30 times, plus big-game hunting elsewhere as well. His whole house and grounds are Africa themed. The name of the property is "Nyamza de Simba" or something like that meaning "House of Lions". He has an Africa shaped pond on the grounds and God knows how much taxidermy,collectible rifles and commissioned paintings in the house. He hired one of the best-known outdoor painters for a month to paint a wall with an Africa theme. Anyway, that is the kind of place it it
-And yes, he is a little arrogant. Last year on the tour, I tried to ask him if he had ever been to the area of Zimbabwe that I had been-His answer was "I have been to Africa over 30 times so I have been all over"-Well, I didn't ask you how many times you have been to Africa. I asked if you had ever been to Matetsi. But anyway.
He makes a practice of inviting his customers and neighbors every August for a tour of the property and a free supper. We are not customers and had never been invited. However, after my 2013 hunt, I joined the Safari Club International(SCI) and he also invites Minnesota SCI members as the event is also a fundraiser for Disabled American Veterans or other related groups-When I saw the "total raised" sign-fairly early in the evening it looked like about $100,000. Obviously, (myself excluded) the SCI membership base skews fairly high on the wealth scales. I remember last year that it was also in the 6 figure range.
Anyway, Mrs S and I went last year, and this year we brought the 2 youngest to see it. Will we go next year? Good supper, but once you have seen to mounts twice=not really a reason to draw you back. No one will be surprised that my favorite thing in the house is his "Africana" bookcase.
Anyway, not many people reach that level and they tend to know each other.. I am guessing that he (or other bigwigs) with Minnesota SCI have talked with Palmer about the incident. We did a self-tour this year and I am sure that I overheard somebody telling the story, but I did not want to look like I was eavesdropping-so I moseyed along slowly.
The owner was quoted in an early newspaper article on the Palmer deal.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
http://www.startribune.com/on-his-own-l ... 322009941/
Oh for Pete's Sake, I get that Mr. Palmer is the scumbag of the world, but not everything he does is sinister. He has accumulated about 900 acres of hunting land in west-central/northwest Minnesota. The article focuses on his desire for privacy and strict control of the boundaries. This is normal.
How does that differ from the many celebrities/business magnates/etc who acquire rural recreational lands? It is normal. The strict control of the boundaries is also common practice by people from the cities who acquire rural hunting lands-no matter the size. He is not an outlier in that regard. The article seems to mention that he is becoming more a part of the community as time goes-this is normal too.
For my appraisal stuff, I have talked with many buyers of hunting land-they are generally easy to talk to as they are proud of their purchases. However, they are also very protective of them. Locals are also more protective and cognizant of hunting rights on their lands than they were in 1960's. 70's and 80's. The era that many of us grew up in. I don't necessarily like it, but it is what it is.
From the article>>>Locals talk with envy about the nearly 900-acre spread of rolling hills, oak woodlands and small lakes. It’s some of the most pristine countryside in the area, they say.<<<
Obviously, a lot of the"Local" crap is driven by envy.
Mr. Palmer is the type of individual that we do a lot of work for in the appraisal side of my life. He is in love with this wonderful piece of land and he will take steps to preserve it after his death-whether that be through a conservation easement or sale to the Nature Conservancy or a government agency or whatever.
However, the means to do something like this might be taken from him (or not) because of what is going on. Obviously, I do not know his financial situation.
His hunting property is about 80 miles from here. I don't know his property, but I have worked on natural land appraisals in the area. It is an area of high conservation efforts by public and private parties-largely because a decent amount of natural prairie is present in the area. The threats to such lands in the area are gravel mining and conversion to cropland. If Palmer is still able to do it-his natural landscapes will remain so.
Contrast this with the actions of a well-known billionaire in the region. (R.D.Offut). His company is clearing thousands of acres of timberland in a region just east/northeast of the Palmer Lands. These sensitive sandy lands are being cleared for irrigated potato production for fast food french fries.
Oh for Pete's Sake, I get that Mr. Palmer is the scumbag of the world, but not everything he does is sinister. He has accumulated about 900 acres of hunting land in west-central/northwest Minnesota. The article focuses on his desire for privacy and strict control of the boundaries. This is normal.
How does that differ from the many celebrities/business magnates/etc who acquire rural recreational lands? It is normal. The strict control of the boundaries is also common practice by people from the cities who acquire rural hunting lands-no matter the size. He is not an outlier in that regard. The article seems to mention that he is becoming more a part of the community as time goes-this is normal too.
For my appraisal stuff, I have talked with many buyers of hunting land-they are generally easy to talk to as they are proud of their purchases. However, they are also very protective of them. Locals are also more protective and cognizant of hunting rights on their lands than they were in 1960's. 70's and 80's. The era that many of us grew up in. I don't necessarily like it, but it is what it is.
From the article>>>Locals talk with envy about the nearly 900-acre spread of rolling hills, oak woodlands and small lakes. It’s some of the most pristine countryside in the area, they say.<<<
Obviously, a lot of the"Local" crap is driven by envy.
Mr. Palmer is the type of individual that we do a lot of work for in the appraisal side of my life. He is in love with this wonderful piece of land and he will take steps to preserve it after his death-whether that be through a conservation easement or sale to the Nature Conservancy or a government agency or whatever.
However, the means to do something like this might be taken from him (or not) because of what is going on. Obviously, I do not know his financial situation.
His hunting property is about 80 miles from here. I don't know his property, but I have worked on natural land appraisals in the area. It is an area of high conservation efforts by public and private parties-largely because a decent amount of natural prairie is present in the area. The threats to such lands in the area are gravel mining and conversion to cropland. If Palmer is still able to do it-his natural landscapes will remain so.
Contrast this with the actions of a well-known billionaire in the region. (R.D.Offut). His company is clearing thousands of acres of timberland in a region just east/northeast of the Palmer Lands. These sensitive sandy lands are being cleared for irrigated potato production for fast food french fries.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
http://www.cnbcafrica.com/news/east-afr ... m-decline/
This article and short video should be interesting to those who believe that photo-tourism is the answer to all Africa's conservation problems. The last few years have seen a massive decline and job loss in Kenya's photo-tourism sector (Kenya does not allow hunting). The official in the video basically says that the photo-tourism model does not work anymore and they need to find a new model.
Note that the area where tourism is growing is away from the animals-in areas like beach activities and para-sailing and so forth.
This trend is similar to that faced by many old style family lake resorts in Minnesota over the last few decades. People aren't satisfied with just fishing and swimming and other traditional activities anymore-they want golf and shopping and etc etc.
I remember an interview with a resorter when he said the major change hinged around people wanting TV's in the cabins. They weren't satisfied to sit and play family card games in the evening and so forth.
This article and short video should be interesting to those who believe that photo-tourism is the answer to all Africa's conservation problems. The last few years have seen a massive decline and job loss in Kenya's photo-tourism sector (Kenya does not allow hunting). The official in the video basically says that the photo-tourism model does not work anymore and they need to find a new model.
Note that the area where tourism is growing is away from the animals-in areas like beach activities and para-sailing and so forth.
This trend is similar to that faced by many old style family lake resorts in Minnesota over the last few decades. People aren't satisfied with just fishing and swimming and other traditional activities anymore-they want golf and shopping and etc etc.
I remember an interview with a resorter when he said the major change hinged around people wanting TV's in the cabins. They weren't satisfied to sit and play family card games in the evening and so forth.
- Bob Juch
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
So, every news story and column by anti-hunters that I read about how this is opening up channels for discussion of trophy hunting of lions are just meaningless drivel or what. Should I take their comments about having the discussion seriously, or is that just BS and the "Discussion" actually means-Bob Juch wrote:
"My side will make its propaganda points and direct a social media firehose for 2 weeks and anybody who answers any of our points is just beating a dead lion"
. Speaking of beating a dead lion, The link to the Star-Tribune story above(Speaking of speculative hit pieces) shows an artist's outline of a aerial photo of Cecil at a protest on Saturday, August 15th. They were hoping for 1,000 people-they got 100. That group is obviously the one beating the lion.
Obviously, through your posting history here, we all know you are very good at posting early speculation, but you have the attention span of a 2-year old and seldom provide follow-up, especially if it contradicts your political views.
I have spent way too much time reading through anti-hunters' columns and comments. I am begging you (or anyone here) please bring me something deeper than "hunters have small genitals" and "Hunt with a camera, not a gun."
1)You guys do not have an answer for the decimation of Kenya's game since the 1977 hunting ban-and simply refuse to acknowledge that it exists.
2) Your side can't begin to comprehend the amount of pressure on the resource (wildlife and wildlands) by hundreds of millions of poor Africans and simply can't address the issue in a meaningful manner.
3) Your side refuses to discuss poaching in a meaningful manner. Remember 96 elephants a day poached (largely for ivory for the far east) VS 140 elephants a year sport-hunted with all the meat going to local villages. You simply won't go there unless a westerner is (Possibly) guilty-then by god we turn on the social media firehose.
4) Your side has no granularity. The typical urban westerner can't begin to comprehend that even with all the poaching, that there are areas of Africa-Botswana and Zimbabwe particularly, with massive overpopulations of elephants doing tremendous damage to bioiversity in the area and it will lead to massive die-offs in the area of elephants and basically all the other stuff in the area.
5) Your side also won't discuss the failings of the phototourism model. It appears to be failing in Kenya, where do you go from there?
It all comes down to my mantra in this whole thing and which has been proven in spades through the Cecil thing..
The typical urban westerner can only see the individual animal. He/she can't see the land behind the animal and the pressures upon that land.
It is often said that trophy hunting is an outdated activity. However that may be, it is the hunting community that has a realistic view of Africa and not one simply informed by watching too many National Geographic specials filmed in the iconic national parks.
Obviously, I can't expect much engagement from someone whose idea of a political argument is "Your beating a dead horse"-what's that-the second time in this tread now?
- Bob Juch
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
Zimbabwe court charges game park owner over illegal hunt of Cecil the lion
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/zim ... ocid=fbmsn
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/zim ... ocid=fbmsn
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion
This cracked me up, even though it was utterly predictable.
http://citizen.co.za/1295923/outrage-ag ... J.facebook
>>>Permanent Secretary of Zimbabwe Prince Mupazviriho Chiwewete said his country had not received a single cent of the donations collected for Cecil the lion.<<<<
Some might say that given the corruption in Zimbabwe that the money would have been wasted. Well, it appears that the same applies to all the western NGO's collecting on behalf of Cecil.
http://citizen.co.za/1295923/outrage-ag ... J.facebook
>>>Permanent Secretary of Zimbabwe Prince Mupazviriho Chiwewete said his country had not received a single cent of the donations collected for Cecil the lion.<<<<
Some might say that given the corruption in Zimbabwe that the money would have been wasted. Well, it appears that the same applies to all the western NGO's collecting on behalf of Cecil.
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Re: (2015) RIP Cecil the lion
I know that we (in the collective sense) have the attention span of gnats, and this so 2015. However, it is being reported in the kinds of places where I see it that the research project that had the collar on Cecil has said that the property where he was shot was part of his normal range-(as I thought likely). This means he was not lured out of the park as numerous breathless reports indicated.
- jarnon
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Re: (2015) RIP Cecil the lion
Spock is eager to talk about this, so ...
Son of Cecil the lion killed in Zimbabwean hunt
Xanda wasn't in a national park, so there's no doubt the hunt was legal.
Son of Cecil the lion killed in Zimbabwean hunt
Xanda wasn't in a national park, so there's no doubt the hunt was legal.
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Re: (2015) RIP Cecil the lion
https://africageographic.com/blog/cecil ... hy-hunter/
Upon reflection, the thing that struck me the most about this is:
>>>"we were aware that Xanda and his pride was spending a lot of time out of the park in the last six months, but there is not much we can do about that. "<<<<
The fact that they are spending so much time out of the park, indicates that the adjoining property is still pretty wild, with plenty of game movement between the park and the adjoining land. I saw this game movement farther north in the same string of properties. The wildest feeling area I was on was in some remote areas on that string of properties.
Most likely, there are enough Cape Buffalo (and other game) nearby to keep the lions there. If they were eating cattle and goats, that whole pride would have been wiped out in no time.
For those that read the Laikipia article, you will note that lions appear to understand property boundaries very well.
It is telling that the Hwange lions do not know where the boundary is. They still view the adjoining lands as an inherent/intact part of the ecosystem, which they essentially are.
The landowner or village chief or whoever understands that he could get tens of thousand of dollars for hunting a lion-therefore their presence is tolerated and maybe encouraged.
If that hunting right were taken away from that property, those lions (all of them) would likely be dead as soon as they crossed into village land-poisoned or snared. The presence of elephants and cape buffalo would also probably be discouraged as well.
Upon reflection, the thing that struck me the most about this is:
>>>"we were aware that Xanda and his pride was spending a lot of time out of the park in the last six months, but there is not much we can do about that. "<<<<
The fact that they are spending so much time out of the park, indicates that the adjoining property is still pretty wild, with plenty of game movement between the park and the adjoining land. I saw this game movement farther north in the same string of properties. The wildest feeling area I was on was in some remote areas on that string of properties.
Most likely, there are enough Cape Buffalo (and other game) nearby to keep the lions there. If they were eating cattle and goats, that whole pride would have been wiped out in no time.
For those that read the Laikipia article, you will note that lions appear to understand property boundaries very well.
It is telling that the Hwange lions do not know where the boundary is. They still view the adjoining lands as an inherent/intact part of the ecosystem, which they essentially are.
The landowner or village chief or whoever understands that he could get tens of thousand of dollars for hunting a lion-therefore their presence is tolerated and maybe encouraged.
If that hunting right were taken away from that property, those lions (all of them) would likely be dead as soon as they crossed into village land-poisoned or snared. The presence of elephants and cape buffalo would also probably be discouraged as well.