(2015) RIP Cecil the lion

[jarnon]

The beloved lion was shot with an arrow by a Minnesota dentist, after the hunter's guides lured Cecil off of a Zimbabwe natural park. The guides are charged with poaching.

Jimmy Kimmel had some choice words about the killing:

Why are you shooting a lion in the first place? I mean, I'm honestly curious to know why a human being would feel compelled to do that. How is that fun? Is it that difficult for you to get an erection that you need to kill things? If that's the case, they have a pill for that. It works great. Just stay home and swallow it, and you save yourself a lifetime of being the most hated man in America who never advertised Jello pudding on television. And by the way, I'm not against hunting. If you're hunting to eat, or to help keep the animal population healthy, or it's part of your culture, that's one thing, but if you're some anal dentist who wants a lion's head over the fireplace in his man cave so his douche bag buddies can gather around it and drink scotch and tell him how awesome he is, that's just vomitous.

[BackInTex]

The beloved lion was shot with an arrow by a Minnesota dentist, after the hunter's guides lured Cecil off of a Zimbabwe natural park. The guides are charged with poaching.

Jimmy Kimmel had some choice words about the killing:

Why are you shooting a lion in the first place? I mean, I'm honestly curious to know why a human being wuld feel compelled to do that. How is that fun? Is it that difficult for you to get an erection that you need to kill things? If that's the case, they have a pill for that. It works great. Just stay home and swallow it, and you save yourself a lifetime of being the most hated man in America who never advertised Jello pudding on television. And by the way, I'm not against hunting. If you're hunting to eat, or to help keep the animal population healthy, or it's part of your culture, that's one thing, but if you're some anal dentist who wants a lion's head over the fireplace in his man cave so his douche bag buddies can gather around it and drink scotch and tell him how awesome he is, that's just vomitous.

I am not a hunter and if I ever get the chance to go to Africa I would love to go on a safari and hunt, but with a quality camera and high-powered lens. Jimmy and others are welcome to their opinions but at least they should be intellectually consistent.

or it's part of your culture

What the heck does that matter? I realize he is trying to be politically correct with regard to indigenous people, but why should that matter? If he holds to his opinion that hunting for sport is wrong, then he should be man enough to stand up and say that even the indigenous people are wrong (if not hunting to eat or keeping the animal population healthy).

And who's to say that trophy hunting is not part of this Dentist's culture? White Europeans have been hunting and hanging trophies for thousands of years. But, as with everything else PC, white Europeans are evil and even if they do things others do, it is wrong for them. We should be ashamed. Jimmy seems to be.

[jarnon]

I am not a hunter and if I ever get the chance to go to Africa I would love to go on a safari and hunt, but with a quality camera and high-powered lens. Jimmy and others are welcome to their opinions but at least they should be intellectually consistent.

or it's part of your culture

What the heck does that matter? I realize he is trying to be politically correct with regard to indigenous people, but why should that matter? If he holds to his opinion that hunting for sport is wrong, then he should be man enough to stand up and say that even the indigenous people are wrong (if not hunting to eat or keeping the animal population healthy).

And who's to say that trophy hunting is not part of this Dentist's culture? White Europeans have been hunting and hanging trophies for thousands of years. But, as with everything else PC, white Europeans are evil and even if they do things others do, it is wrong for them. We should be ashamed. Jimmy seems to be.

Hunting is also part of our culture. There wouldn't have been an uproar if the dentist had shot a bear in Minnesota, or a mountain lion in Montana.

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

Alt headline, Zebras Rejoice!

[SpacemanSpiff]

Alt headline, Zebras Rejoice!

They say it's crackalackin'!

[Evil Dentist]

The next thing I shoot will be Jimmy Kimmel's mouth..... with lots of novocaine!

Now, just stare up at the lion head and say AAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhh....

[Spock]

RIP-Un-named 7 year old boy killed by a collared lion 3 kilometres outside of Hwange National Park in 2014.

http://www.newzimbabwe.com/news-15183-B ... /news.aspx

I disagree that this was a "Stray" lion as Hwange National Park is a Switzerland sized piece of land that is still surrounded by a large, relatively intact, buffer of natural lands. The wildlife roams freely within the larger Hwange ecosystem. The same applies to Cecil-he obviously roamed across Hwange borders many times in his life.

There is a strong perception among rural Africans that wildlife conservation is a "White" and developed world thing and that whites and rich westerners (remember we are all rich to them) care more about the wildlife than we care about them. Also,simply put, the locals generally hate lions and fear elephants. Yes, I have read extensively on this topic.

Setting aside the obvious illegalities of the hunt, the "Cecil "Shitstorm" obviously feeds that perception in spades. It likely will make the task of working for conservation with locals exponentially harder.

The following link shows what we are dealing with in human-wildlife conflict.
http://www.herald.co.zw/human-wildlife- ... ts-deepen/

Pull Quote>>>However, with 66 cases of lion attacks on humans or human settlements reported in just three months, that number is notoriously high.<<<

[silverscreenselect]

Pull Quote>>>However, with 66 cases of lion attacks on humans or human settlements reported in just three months, that number is notoriously high.<<<

So, he's just concerned about the safety of those innocent villagers. I guess he was concerned about the safety of his fellow Americans when he was convicted of lying to a federal agent about shooting a bear illegally a few years ago.

It wouldn't surprise me if whoever licenses dentists in Minnesota takes a look at this.

[Bob Juch]

Pull Quote>>>However, with 66 cases of lion attacks on humans or human settlements reported in just three months, that number is notoriously high.<<<

So, he's just concerned about the safety of those innocent villagers. I guess he was concerned about the safety of his fellow Americans when he was convicted of lying to a federal agent about shooting a bear illegally a few years ago.

It wouldn't surprise me if whoever licenses dentists in Minnesota takes a look at this.

He donated the maximum $5000 to Romney for President.

[littlebeast13]

It's quite obvious we need to put lions behind arrowproof glass to prevent tragedies like this...

lb13

[Bob78164]

The beloved lion was shot with an arrow by a Minnesota dentist, after the hunter's guides lured Cecil off of a Zimbabwe natural park. The guides are charged with poaching.

Jimmy Kimmel had some choice words about the killing:

Why are you shooting a lion in the first place? I mean, I'm honestly curious to know why a human being wuld feel compelled to do that. How is that fun? Is it that difficult for you to get an erection that you need to kill things? If that's the case, they have a pill for that. It works great. Just stay home and swallow it, and you save yourself a lifetime of being the most hated man in America who never advertised Jello pudding on television. And by the way, I'm not against hunting. If you're hunting to eat, or to help keep the animal population healthy, or it's part of your culture, that's one thing, but if you're some anal dentist who wants a lion's head over the fireplace in his man cave so his douche bag buddies can gather around it and drink scotch and tell him how awesome he is, that's just vomitous.

In a world with things that are truly evil, isn't this a bit of an overreaction? I can understand why people would consider the guy's actions distasteful, even loathsome. But on the list of top ten things worthy of my attention, I don't think this makes the top 50. --Bob

[BackInTex]

In a world with things that are truly evil, isn't this a bit of an overreaction? I can understand why people would consider the guy's actions distasteful, even loathsome. But on the list of top ten things worthy of my attention, I don't think this makes the top 50. --Bob

Excellent point and I agree.

wow, did I just say that?

[Spock]

Just to put everybody on the same page. The only illegal part of the whole deal appears to be that the lion was shot on a property with no lion quota. It is not illegal to bait the animal along Hwange's borders, if the hunted property has a lion quota. You may not like it-but that is the way it is.

For example, Matetsi 3, 4 and 5 (just south of where I hunted) border Hwange on the north side of the park. I believe that each of these has one lion on quota. It is legal to bait lions in from the park-however you can't hunt these areas government areas after dark as you can on communal/private lands along the Hwange border. Also there are resident lions living throughout Matetsi

For those that think that baiting along the border is "Yucky" take a look at Kenya. The protected areas there have lost their buffer zones-there is no hunting or other consumptive uses of wildlife there. They have lost 60 to 70 percent of the game-including in te parks.

http://idahoforwildlife.com/Charles%20K ... unting.pdf

There is a movement(maybe law in Tanzania-not sure about Zim) to only shoot lions 6 years or older as the idea is that they are unable to hang onto a pride after that. I have seen something that Cecil lost the pride once and paired up with a younger lion to get it back.

SSS>>>So, he's just concerned about the safety of those innocent villagers. I guess he was concerned about the safety of his fellow Americans when he was convicted of lying to a federal agent about shooting a bear illegally a few years ago. <<<

Oh gee, a snarky comment from SSS regarding something he knows absolutely nothing about. I freely admit that I only care about African wildlife-I really don't give a shit about the people-However, I recognize that the local communities have to be a part of the conservation-you can't do much without them buying into the program. I also recognize that rural Africans are bearing the costs of living with destructive animals
and that is part of the conservation equation.

Also just a tidbit about elephant hunting to show the scale of sport hunting versus poaching.

I read an article recently that said about 140 elephants a YEAR are sport hunted throughout Africa. Conversely, 96 elephants a DAY are poached. Mostly the ivory from them heads to China-but our keyboard warriors are all up in arms about the 140 a year and keep pretty quiet about the 96 a day.

[a1mamacat]

when all is said and done, Cecil, and cubs, are gone, (the new male will kill them all to bring the females into heat) so the hunter can have a little orgasm with his little organ, about "taking a lion". This is not about hunting to survive. This is an ego thing, pure and simple.

Now if the dentist had slaughtered Cecil in a true honest hunt, no weapons except those nature gave each of them, he might have something to brag about. These 'trophies" are probably the only things he can mount!!

[Spock]

The beloved lion was shot with an arrow by a Minnesota dentist, after the hunter's guides lured Cecil off of a Zimbabwe natural park. The guides are charged with poaching.

Jimmy Kimmel had some choice words about the killing:

Why are you shooting a lion in the first place? I mean, I'm honestly curious to know why a human being would feel compelled to do that. How is that fun? Is it that difficult for you to get an erection that you need to kill things? If that's the case, they have a pill for that. It works great. Just stay home and swallow it, and you save yourself a lifetime of being the most hated man in America who never advertised Jello pudding on television. And by the way, I'm not against hunting. If you're hunting to eat, or to help keep the animal population healthy, or it's part of your culture, that's one thing, but if you're some anal dentist who wants a lion's head over the fireplace in his man cave so his douche bag buddies can gather around it and drink scotch and tell him how awesome he is, that's just vomitous.

I will give Jimmy Kimmel credit when he can show that he has ever seriously thought about African wildlife conservation before yesterday. What is his plan for keeping intact, as long as possible, the relatively intact natural buffer areas that surround Hwange Park. ? Gee, a joke about an erection and hunting-how original and the hiding place of someone who hasn't ever had a deep thought on the subject in his life. Can he even now-point to a map of Zimbabwe and Hwange National Park and discuss conservation issues there?

[smilergrogan]

I freely admit that I only care about African wildlife-I really don't give a shit about the people

Probably fortunate for the people, as it appears that if you cared about them then you would have to shoot them.

[silverscreenselect]

SSS>>>So, he's just concerned about the safety of those innocent villagers. I guess he was concerned about the safety of his fellow Americans when he was convicted of lying to a federal agent about shooting a bear illegally a few years ago. <<<

Oh gee, a snarky comment from SSS regarding something he knows absolutely nothing about. I freely admit that I only care about African wildlife-I really don't give a shit about the people-

The bear shooting occurred here in the US, so I guess you don't give a shit about those people either.

The good news is that I've found a dentist I'm sure you'll like. It may be a bit of a drive from where you are, but I'm sure that he'll appreciate the business to make up for the patients he's losing who apparently don't care as much about African wildlife as you and that dentist do.

[ghostjmf]

What the hell is it with wild-game-hunting dentists?


I believe I posted here years ago about how my blood curdled when I heard my periodontist discussing with someone the bear-hunting trip the perio was raring to go on. I dunno what they intended to kill bear(s) with. I will not assume they eat bear. They're a highly skilled perio. Not enough for them, I guess.

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

What the hell is it with wild-game-hunting dentists?


I believe I posted here years ago about how my blood curdled when I heard my periodontist discussing with someone the bear-hunting trip the perio was raring to go on. I dunno what they intended to kill bear(s) with. I will not assume they eat bear. They're a highly skilled perio. Not enough for them, I guess.

In Last of the Breed, louis L'Amour has a escaped airman of Native American heritage survive an Siberian winter by killing and eating a bear. The bear fat was especially useful.

[Spock]

Ivan Carter, a very well-known photo-tourism and hunting guide has written a short piece that encapsulates the views of the hunting community (and my own) as well as anything out there. Taken from his FB page-don't know how to link to it.

>>>CECIL THE LION
I have been bombarded with e mails, calls and texts about cecil the lion , I have seen many of the newsreels and I have spoken to several people who are truly in the know …some of the reporting is atrocious – here are the facts as I see them .

1- The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period .
2- There was an attempt to destroy the collar – why? This would lead me to believe that Palmer knew the facts – indeed he had a previous poaching conviction involving shooting a bear in an area with no permit.
3- In Zimbabwe it is not illegal to shoot a lion with a collar.
4- The property upon which the hunt took place was land that was involved in the Zimbabwe land redistribution….
5- I have no doubt that the landowner and hunting company and Ph knew exactly what was happening and they are directly involved in this POACHING incident.
6- Had this happened in an area with a valid quota , a 13 year old lion would have indeed been the perfect lion to hunt – beyond breeding , this lion at 13 years old was near the end of his life.

My thoughts…
I do not condone poachers , I ABHOR poaching – there is no difference between an incident like this and a rhino poacher in a national park - I believe that hunting when done within the boundaries of good ethics is the most incredible conservation tool – Incidents like these put a terrible light on hunters in general.
There are a lot of examples not just in Africa but all over the world where hunting and more specifically hunters dollars have funded the preservation , protection and enlarging of wildlife areas to the degree that species and wildlife have thrived. Sadly the emotionally motivated opinions and “politically correct” agendas often get in the way of any meaningful dialogue or solutions. Incidents like this fuel the fire, create a social media storm and paint all hunters in a terrible light – making it all the more difficult for good upstanding hunters to be heard and recognized for the good they do ...
A boundary is a boundary , I have no issue at all with a hunter shooting a lion in a bona fide concession where the lion is on quota – even if it is a named individual – UNLESS THE LAW OR ETHICS DICTATE OTHERWISE –
To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate - in this case I am pleased that this incident is being tried - it was ILLEGAL it was POACHING – that said its being given WAAAAY more coverage than it should be.

[Bob Juch]

The controversial photo shown above features Kerry Krottinger and his wife, Libby, in their $3.2 million home in Dallas, Texas. Besides being a lion hunter, the trophy room features stuffed rhinos, giraffes, cheetahs, zebra, and hogs. The number of stuffed lions are enough to form a small pride, and there is practically a herd of gazelles hanging on the wall, but what some find upsetting is the elephant tusks prominently featured near the top of the photo.

The article by National Geographic featured the home of Kerry Krottinger among many others. The story was ironically entitled “Still Life,” and it discusses the role of conservation and taxidermy in modern times.

“A century ago, taxidermy played a key part in fostering wildlife conservation. Today its role is less clear,” National Geographic said. “Kerry contends that his spending on trophy hunts helps sway African nations to conserve animals. U.S. policy may also encourage conservation: When Zimbabwe didn’t provide adequate data on its elephant management, U.S. officials extended a ban on elephant trophies from the nation.”

The Krottinger’s own properties including Ndugu Ranch, which they named based upon their “love for Africa.”

http://www.inquisitr.com/2295647/kerry- ... sts-photo/

[littlebeast13]

Is the trophy wife stuffed too, or did she have some other kind of work done?

lb13

[silvercamaro]

For those worried about Cecil's cubs, here is some potential good news. Cecil's brother seems to be watching over them, according to observers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... xpert.html

[Spock]

A train of thought that I was developing during the "They Want to Meat" thread of last fall is that the urban, western mindset (as epitomized by the Cecil debacle) only sees the animal and are incapable of seeing the larger context.

What has been the main themes of the story.

1) Cecil was lured out of a sanctuary to bordering land.

I have seen no news stories about the size of the sanctuary. Is it a 20-acre roadside zoo or something larger? What is the nature of the boundary between the properties? Has it ever been reported that Hwange National Park is a Switzerland-sized area with no fences to surrounding properties. Animals move freely throughout the larger area. We hunted about 25 miles north of the park and there were no barriers between us and the park. In all likelihood, Cecil crossed the park boundaries many times over his life.

2) Cecil was wearing a research collar.

What is the context of this? Has it been reported that it is legal to shoot a collared lion(assuming all other factors are legal) in Zimbabwe. In fact, to my knowledge it is legal here to shoot collared animals as it is part of the mortality and adds valuable data to the study.

Has it been reported anywhere(other than me here and on Mrs S's Facebook page) that a collared lion killed a child outside the park last year. Just because a lion is wearing a collar does not mean it was tame. Such a lion is subject to all the area factors that any other lion is.

3) The basic response by most is "Trophy Hunting Bad." I see a lot of artificial split between trophy hunting and meat hunting. Has anyone ever grasped the fact that (except for rare exceptions) the trophy's meat is used as fully as a meat hunted meat is.

There is nowhere to take a Cecil-centered discussion other than "Trophy-hunters suck"

I have mentioned this book before and I know that nobody who should read it will-However, the book is "Game Changer" by Glen Martin.
http://www.amazon.com/Game-Changer-Anim ... 518&sr=1-1

This book gives a continental look at what is going on with wildlife in Africa and would give a common framework to look at some of the specifics such as "Cecil" with a better understanding of "Cecil" in context of the land and people of Africa.

If anyone here has a suggestion for a book for me to read that provides a larger context more to their liking-I am certainly open to it.

[Bob Juch]

A train of thought that I was developing during the "They Want to Meat" thread of last fall is that the urban, western mindset (as epitomized by the Cecil debacle) only sees the animal and are incapable of seeing the larger context.

What has been the main themes of the story.

1) Cecil was lured out of a sanctuary to bordering land.

I have seen no news stories about the size of the sanctuary. Is it a 20-acre roadside zoo or something larger? What is the nature of the boundary between the properties? Has it ever been reported that Hwange National Park is a Switzerland-sized area with no fences to surrounding properties. Animals move freely throughout the larger area. We hunted about 25 miles north of the park and there were no barriers between us and the park. In all likelihood, Cecil crossed the park boundaries many times over his life.

2) Cecil was wearing a research collar.

What is the context of this? Has it been reported that it is legal to shoot a collared lion(assuming all other factors are legal) in Zimbabwe. In fact, to my knowledge it is legal here to shoot collared animals as it is part of the mortality and adds valuable data to the study.

Has it been reported anywhere(other than me here and on Mrs S's Facebook page) that a collared lion killed a child outside the park last year. Just because a lion is wearing a collar does not mean it was tame. Such a lion is subject to all the area factors that any other lion is.

3) The basic response by most is "Trophy Hunting Bad." I see a lot of artificial split between trophy hunting and meat hunting. Has anyone ever grasped the fact that (except for rare exceptions) the trophy's meat is used as fully as a meat hunted meat is.

There is nowhere to take a Cecil-centered discussion other than "Trophy-hunters suck"

I have mentioned this book before and I know that nobody who should read it will-However, the book is "Game Changer" by Glen Martin.
http://www.amazon.com/Game-Changer-Anim ... 518&sr=1-1

This book gives a continental look at what is going on with wildlife in Africa and would give a common framework to look at some of the specifics such as "Cecil" with a better understanding of "Cecil" in context of the land and people of Africa.

If anyone here has a suggestion for a book for me to read that provides a larger context more to their liking-I am certainly open to it.

1) The sanctuary was Hwange National Park. Where he was killed did not permit killing of lions; the landowner "was not allocated a lion on his hunting quota for 2015". His corpse was left to rot in the sun.

2) It it not permitted to kill a collared lion in Zimbabwe. Theo Bronchorst, a professional hunter, and Honest Trymore Ndlovu, a landowner, have been arrested for poaching. They tried to destroy the GPS collar.