(2015) RIP Cecil the lion

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Bob Juch
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Re: RIP Cecil the Lion

#51 Post by Bob Juch » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:35 am

Spock wrote:
littlebeast13 wrote:I don't think there's anybody better at beating a dead horse (or lion) than our Spock. He won't even let himself get the last word...

lb13
Hey, it is all on topic(WWTBAM-related) as one of my links supports my ongoing contention from the early days of the show that the WWTBAM question asking which animal kills more people-(Hippos or Crocs)-was wrong. They said Hippos-I think crocs. So when I am not beating the dead lion here, I am working with my attorneys on preparing a magnum opus to send to the WWTBAM TPTB.

Besides, MRS S won't let me do much on her FB page regarding the Cecil issue or she will revoke my privileges on her FB page.-so this is my outlet-and I am happier than a pig in mud.
That's not mud.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#52 Post by Bob Juch » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:05 am

Botswana bans sports hunters after Cecil killing

http://www.enca.com/africa/botswana-ban ... fter-cecil
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Re: RIP Cecil the Lion

#53 Post by Spock » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:12 am

silvercamaro wrote:
Oh, and I've been somewhat disturbed by the number of times I've heard people (regular folks, news-gatherers on tv, internet video-makers, etc.) refer to Cecil as "that tiger." Shouldn't knowing the difference between a lion and a tiger be a minimal qualification for, say, breathing or something?
I have noticed that the Cecil-Outrage Crowd is not exactly composed of PHD level zoologists. Jaguars do not live in Africa.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141165148

This is one of my favorites-the commenter tries to go into the weeds, but comes up with a massive fail.

Scroll down the thread and you will see a picture of one of the doctors or dentists(can't keep them straight anymore) with a very small antelope and the caption is "They are not just killing adult animals anymore."

Umm, yes, that is an adult-Probably one of the many species of Duiker-and for the species that constitutes a nice trophy (yes, the meat was eaten). Apparently, the DU commenter has never come across the idea that not all species in Africa are "horse sized"

Big Game hunters often try to fill certain categories of animals-for example, the "Grand Slam" of North American wild sheep consists of 4 different species. Similarly, there is a "Tiny Ten" that is made up of the various species of small African antelope (Yes, the meat is eaten).

Another one of my favorites is from "Stop the Poaching-Cecil RIP" Facebook page-I would love to post the images of snared lions on that page as an example of real, indiscrimant poaching but Mrs. S won't let me.

Anyway, a commenter said she can't understand why Jericho isn't under guard. Somebody just might have a somewhat unrealistic view of the resources available to the Zimbabwean government.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#54 Post by BackInTex » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:15 am

Meanwhile 3 Killed, 37 Wounded In Chicago Weekend Shootings

But who gives a shit about them. Damn it! A lion was killed!
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#55 Post by Jeemie » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:43 am

There's a reason a dead lion resonates more...because people think of lions as cute animals they see in the zoo (essentially giant pussy cats), and they are personalized by having names given to them, and stories told about their back story.

And human beings react more viscerally to the intimate and personal than they do to the abstract.

Of course, the murder of innocents in Chicago or in the Middle East or wherever are more tragic than Cecil the Lion's death, but when such killings are reported only as statistics, people can't get as emotionally worked up over them. It's too abstract.

There's a reason people put a face on tragedy. Emotionally, and psychologically, it works.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#56 Post by Jeemie » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:47 am

By the way, I don't mind even trophy hunting as long as it is that...hunting.

But luring an animal out with bait and then shooting it is not hunting.

That's animal harvesting with the gun or the bow as the gardening tools.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#57 Post by Bob Juch » Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:28 pm

Delta Bans Shipment of Hunted Animal Trophies

http://time.com/3982871/delta-animal-trophies/
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#58 Post by Bob Juch » Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:32 pm

Image
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#59 Post by silvercamaro » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:51 pm

Yet again, Bob J posts the most asinine thing to date about Cecil, hunting, and trophy hunters in general.

This is where BJ comes back to say, "I just posted it. I didn't say I agreed with it," because that's what he's said about all the other asinine things he has posted.

It is absurd to demonize people who happen to use their spare time or resources to pursue interests that don't coincide with one's own preferences. I believe I've probably established my credentials as an animal-lover over the years of this bored's existance, and I no doubt have raised some unkind if unspoken thoughts on the extent of my own financial resources I've invested in trying to give several of my dogs the chance for longer lives. So be it. Still, I place human beings over animals. No matter how much I adore lions, giraffes, wolves, bears or dogs in general, if one of them starts attacking people and domestic animals, that rogue creature has to be removed from the environment in one way or another. (No, I have not heard that the particular lions in the news have had any previous encounters with humans, but that's not my point.)

I've also noted a whiff of disappointment or anger across the internet that the dentist used a bow instead of a gun on the lion (or "that tiger," for those who can't keep up,) because the firearm would have provided a more convenient link for anti-gun activists to scream and moan about the evils of a gun-centric society, yada, yada. BJ's post doesn't have that, simply because the snarky originator jumped ahead and evidently assumed that a gun was involved, or that ISIS would have a special squadron trained in bow-and-arrow for fair fights against rogue peridontists.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#60 Post by Spock » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:53 pm

>>>http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141165677<<<

IHeadline is >>>Cecil the lion: big game hunting banned in Zimbabwe as outrage grows over animal killing<<<< I think their take and the take of the linked mirror story is wrong. I believe the true situation is that the hunting concessions near Hwange will receive extra oversight. However, it is a fluid situation and who knows.

It is obvious that the "Stop Hunting" side is going to win some major victories in both the short and long term. I fully recognize that I am a dinosaur.

I want to accept part of the DU/Mirror story for discussion-and say that hunting has been banned in the concessions bordering the park. Now we are all happy and laughing about hunters' small genital etc etc. So the focus of the following is on the concessions bordering Hwange and assumes that hunting is banned there

What Happens Now? This is a question that the "Stop Hunting" crowd can not answer. They can not even begin to grasp that it is a question.

What Happens Now?

Does anyone believe that the concessions will be gazetted into the park? If you do-I want some of what you have been smoking.

We have just removed any incentive for wildlife to be protected on these concessions and for them to stay in natural habitat.

We are going to have villages, cropland, cattle, goats and more people with snares moving right up to the boundary of Hwange Park.

Losing these natural lands is bad enough by themselves-but remember they also serve as a buffer to the park.
I wonder how long the "Sacred/Secure, Inviolable Boundary" of the park will hold then?

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#61 Post by Spock » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:00 pm

Bob Juch wrote:Image
Hah Hah-so funny-You would be surprised at how many of the younger guys and girls hunting in Africa are Iraq/Afghan vets. We were told that it is becoming a common trip for military snipers and other similar types to do. These guys have a lot of money from working for contractors and so forth and are doing a lot of hunting in Africa.

The guides said one thing they did not like about guiding these guys/gals is that they want to take really long shots-versus most African hunting getting within 100 yards or less.

But, I am guessing some on the ground knowledge like that doesn't fit the narrative and the Facebook memes floating around-so have your fun.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#62 Post by TheConfessor » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:18 pm

silvercamaro wrote:I've also noted a whiff of disappointment or anger across the internet that the dentist used a bow instead of a gun on the lion (or "that tiger," for those who can't keep up,) because the firearm would have provided a more convenient link for anti-gun activists to scream and moan about the evils of a gun-centric society, yada, yada. BJ's post doesn't have that, simply because the snarky originator jumped ahead and evidently assumed that a gun was involved, or that ISIS would have a special squadron trained in bow-and-arrow for fair fights against rogue peridontists.
A gun was most certainly involved. It is what killed Cecil the Lion. The dentist managed to injure the lion with an arrow, but he was killed 40 hours later with a gun.
http://m.snopes.com/2015/07/29/cecil-li ... r-dentist/

Also, Dr. Palmer is a cosmetic dentist, not a periodontist.
http://www.riverbluffdental.com/meet-dr-palmer

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#63 Post by silvercamaro » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:47 pm

TheConfessor wrote:
A gun was most certainly involved. It is what killed Cecil the Lion. The dentist managed to injure the lion with an arrow, but he was killed 40 hours later with a gun.
http://m.snopes.com/2015/07/29/cecil-li ... r-dentist/

Also, Dr. Palmer is a cosmetic dentist, not a periodontist.
http://www.riverbluffdental.com/meet-dr-palmer
Thank you for your exactness, Ed. Instrument of death noted, although I have read somewhat differing accounts. I believe it was ghost who first referred to periodontists, though she did not ascribe that specialty to Dr. Palmer. (I spelled it wrong, too, so hey.) Personally, I am somewhat amused by the thought of gangs of "rogue periodontists" roaming the world searching for bad guys and bad gums, accuracy be damned.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#64 Post by Beebs52 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:35 pm

Was it determined that Palmer shot him? With a gun?
Well, then

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#65 Post by Jeemie » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:26 pm

I don't get the Idaho lady.

In what world is hunting a giraffe a sport?
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#66 Post by ghostjmf » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:54 pm

I did indeed say that my periodontist hunts bears to death. I don't know with what weapon. Though I'd bet its not a knife, in hand-to-paw contact. They're a very careful & proficient periodontist, who takes pains not to hurt patients, & while they're not a cosmetic dentist per se the cosmetic aspects of their skill are excellent.


I repeat, I just don't get it. If I had their skill, that would be amazing to me. I've often felt that if I trained to be a *hygenist* it wouldn't wash because I'd need about an hour to stop shaking after working on each patient.


Back to Cecil et all: I do not get any kind of hunting for sport. For food? Of course. I could kill my food if I had to, but my diet would be heavily chicken & fish. Hopefully I could raise the chicks & wouldn't have to actually hunt them.

Sport hunting I just do not get.


And if I were in bear, or for that matter lion country, I'd be really grateful to have someone along who could shoot attacking animals. The key word here is "attacking".



Watch out, Tucker!
Last edited by ghostjmf on Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#67 Post by TheConfessor » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:15 pm

Jeemie wrote:I don't get the Idaho lady.

In what world is hunting a giraffe a sport?
In what world is a giraffe killer a "lady"?

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#68 Post by Beebs52 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:25 pm

TheConfessor wrote:
Jeemie wrote:I don't get the Idaho lady.

In what world is hunting a giraffe a sport?
In what world is a giraffe killer a "lady"?
Wordsmithing at its finest.
Well, then

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#69 Post by Spock » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:22 pm

TheConfessor wrote:
silvercamaro wrote:I've also noted a whiff of disappointment or anger across the internet that the dentist used a bow instead of a gun on the lion (or "that tiger," for those who can't keep up,) because the firearm would have provided a more convenient link for anti-gun activists to scream and moan about the evils of a gun-centric society, yada, yada. BJ's post doesn't have that, simply because the snarky originator jumped ahead and evidently assumed that a gun was involved, or that ISIS would have a special squadron trained in bow-and-arrow for fair fights against rogue peridontists.
The Confessor said>>>"A gun was most certainly involved. It is what killed Cecil the Lion. The dentist managed to injure the lion with an arrow, but he was killed 40 hours later with a gun.
http://m.snopes.com/2015/07/29/cecil-li ... r-dentist/"
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spock starts:
The 40-hour thing is under question. The Snopes source as "Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force" is not the most credible source out there.

Dennis Anderson in the outdoors section of the Minnesota explained the time gap in the following article.
http://www.startribune.com/thoughts-on- ... 320396822/

Pull Quote>>>What is known is that Minnesota archers who hunt in the evening, and who shoot a deer, often don’t pursue that animal until morning, for fear it might be pushed into the distance and never found.

Vis-à-vis Palmer, countless reports have said that he shot his lion at night — which is legal in Zimbabwe and the way most lions are hunted there — and that his party tracked the animal for 40 hours before dispatching it with a gun.

Those countless reports, I am told by someone who knows, are wrong. Instead, as would be the case in Minnesota, the animal was left undisturbed overnight and found sometime the next day. Whether a killing shot was made with a gun or not, I don’t know.<<<<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
spock again-----Obviously, take the "I am told by someone who knows" with a grain of salt. But the description of what happened and the shorter time gap make sense as part of normal hunting practice. I never really got the 40-hour deal.

It is definitely good hunting practice -whatever time of day-to not follow a shot animal for at least a half-hour. This gives the animal time to lose some adrenalin and lie down and stiffen up or bleed out or whatever. Follow too soon and you chase it into the next county.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#70 Post by Spock » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:35 pm

Jeemie wrote:By the way, I don't mind even trophy hunting as long as it is that...hunting.

But luring an animal out with bait and then shooting it is not hunting.

That's animal harvesting with the gun or the bow as the gardening tools.
I basically agree with you on baiting-I don't like it. For various reasons, I think it has its place with leopards-not a fan of it for lions. Financially, a lion hunt is out of the question and it is not on my bucket list-however up in the Benin/Burkina Faso border areas there are a few lion hunts available-they prohibit baiting and you have to track them. I would love to do that-that would be fun.

Baiting has basically wrecked deer hunting in Michigan and Wisconsin( no woodsmanship anymore) , Minnesota is standing firm against it but every year more and more people get caught here. Trouble is-if your neighbors do it-it almost becomes an arms race and you have to do it too.

Bears -I would much prefer to hunt bears in varied terrain out west where you can spot and stalk than in the thick swamps in flat wooded land where baiting is practiced.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#71 Post by BackInTex » Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:22 am

Image
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#72 Post by Spock » Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:58 am

TheConfessor wrote:
silvercamaro wrote:I've also noted a whiff of disappointment or anger across the internet that the dentist used a bow instead of a gun on the lion (or "that tiger," for those who can't keep up,) because the firearm would have provided a more convenient link for anti-gun activists to scream and moan about the evils of a gun-centric society, yada, yada. BJ's post doesn't have that, simply because the snarky originator jumped ahead and evidently assumed that a gun was involved, or that ISIS would have a special squadron trained in bow-and-arrow for fair fights against rogue peridontists.
A gun was most certainly involved. It is what killed Cecil the Lion. The dentist managed to injure the lion with an arrow, but he was killed 40 hours later with a gun.
http://m.snopes.com/2015/07/29/cecil-li ... r-dentist/
Setting aside whether the 40-hour deal is accurate or not-For some reason, it has been treated as a big deal that the lion was finished with a gun. However, it is natural practice, once you have a dangerous wounded lion/buffalo/leopard/elephant on the ground it becomes the PH's job and duty to finish it to prevent injury to any staff or other members of the general public.

Once the client takes a shot-it is his job to immediately assess the injury to the animal and he WILL(and it is his duty) to shoot if there is any doubt about the nature of the hit.

Once they had a wounded Cecil on their hands-it was obviously a rifle that would be used to finish him off.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#73 Post by Spock » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:08 am

Bob Juch wrote:Delta Bans Shipment of Hunted Animal Trophies

http://time.com/3982871/delta-animal-trophies/
Delta is being a little disingenuous here-they are jumping on the PR bandwagon-but not really hurting their business.

Call me when they ban hunters from flying with guns/bows on their planes. That may come, but that is also a step that would really hurt their business.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#74 Post by BackInTex » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:19 am

Spock wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:Delta Bans Shipment of Hunted Animal Trophies

http://time.com/3982871/delta-animal-trophies/
Delta is being a little disingenuous here-they are jumping on the PR bandwagon-but not really hurting their business.

Call me when they ban hunters from flying with guns/bows on their planes. That may come, but that is also a step that would really hurt their business.
It would be interesting if they fly any harvested body parts from abortions. I'll bet they do.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#75 Post by Spock » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:20 am

Spock wrote:
TheConfessor wrote:
silvercamaro wrote:I've also noted a whiff of disappointment or anger across the internet that the dentist used a bow instead of a gun on the lion (or "that tiger," for those who can't keep up,) because the firearm would have provided a more convenient link for anti-gun activists to scream and moan about the evils of a gun-centric society, yada, yada. BJ's post doesn't have that, simply because the snarky originator jumped ahead and evidently assumed that a gun was involved, or that ISIS would have a special squadron trained in bow-and-arrow for fair fights against rogue peridontists.
A gun was most certainly involved. It is what killed Cecil the Lion. The dentist managed to injure the lion with an arrow, but he was killed 40 hours later with a gun.
http://m.snopes.com/2015/07/29/cecil-li ... r-dentist/

In the interest of accuracy-it was a rifle and not a gun that finished him off. Per "Battle Cry" by Leon Uris and other sources-when a WW2 era Marine called his Rifle a "Gun"-the punishment was to stand with his rifle in one hand and his John Thomas in the other and chant-"This is my rifle, this is my gun, this is for fighting, this is for fun."

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