(2015) RIP Cecil the lion

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Spock
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#76 Post by Spock » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:01 am

Per Confessor's Snopes Source-The "Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force"-Remember this is the guy that ginned up the false Jericho story-to keep the strory alive.

My outfitter Russ Broom posted the following to their FB page and his own.

>>>Recently there have been a number of anti hunting groups that really have gone beyond constructive criticism of the hunting industry. I have asked a few simple questions of Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force.

I would like to know from the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force who claim to be a non profit organization a couple of things namely
Where do they get their funding and what do they do with this funding?

Would they mind publishing a set of accounts ?

As ZCTF is set on closing hunting do they have a plan for an anti poaching operation outside The National Parks ?

Do they have a plan for land utilization for the hundreds of thousands of hectares of land outside the Parks ?

Do they have a plan for funding for the community that benefits from hunting outside the Park?

Are they prepared to build schools and fund the education of the community youth that live adjacent to the National Parks?

Because unless they are prepared to answer yes to all the above questions how can they question hunting because that's what hunting operators do outside the Park.<<<<

This Broom post covers many of the same points that were the core of my "They Want to Eat Meat" thread.

I also liked this "Reply" to the Broom post.
>>Revenue from hunting is the only money many rural communities receive. Take that away and the animals will
no longer have any economic value. This is especially true
for the big cats and the elephants.
Conflicts with farmers will
result in indiscriminate killing of many more animals than
selective trophy hunting which concentrates on old males and
thus does not significantly impact populations. Farmers and
poachers will kill all including females and young
.<<

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#77 Post by tlynn78 » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:39 am

Beebs52 wrote:
TheConfessor wrote:
Jeemie wrote:I don't get the Idaho lady.

In what world is hunting a giraffe a sport?
In what world is a giraffe killer a "lady"?
Wordsmithing at its finest.

LOL
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. -Ayn Rand
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#78 Post by Spock » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:47 am

Going back to the genesis of the story and the origin of the 40-hour narrative. Does anyone know if the 40 Hour deal has ever come from a credible, official source or has it always come from Johnny Rodriguez at the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force(ZCTF)? Rodriguez is the guy who put out the false "Jericho" narrative to keep the narrative going.

It is interesting in those stories that came out after the debunkment of the story (ZCTF) still claims that another lion was poached. I am kind of guessing that (if that lion exists) the death of that lion does not fit the narrative-ie he was snared or some such-as we have heard nothing else about him.

The news stories today include allegations by the Zimbabwean government of bribery being involved.

Ok-we are going down the rabbit hole now-The Zimbabwean government alleging bribery falls into the Casablanca quote category.
" I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

Jeez, you can't drive down the road without paying a bribe in the country-so obviously bribery was involved at some stage of the game. I hope we all aren't going to catch the vapors now over a TIA (This is Africa) deal.

I was even hit up for a bribe at the Johannesburg Airport in South Africa (which I paid) to avoid any problems with the firearms transfer-They kind of have you over a barrel.

Given the corruption related massive problems with my hunt-I have joked many times that "Somebody didn't pay the right general."

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#79 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:43 am

Spock wrote:Going back to the genesis of the story and the origin of the 40-hour narrative. Does anyone know if the 40 Hour deal has ever come from a credible, official source or has it always come from Johnny Rodriguez at the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force(ZCTF)? Rodriguez is the guy who put out the false "Jericho" narrative to keep the narrative going.

It is interesting in those stories that came out after the debunkment of the story (ZCTF) still claims that another lion was poached. I am kind of guessing that (if that lion exists) the death of that lion does not fit the narrative-ie he was snared or some such-as we have heard nothing else about him.

The news stories today include allegations by the Zimbabwean government of bribery being involved.

Ok-we are going down the rabbit hole now-The Zimbabwean government alleging bribery falls into the Casablanca quote category.
" I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

Jeez, you can't drive down the road without paying a bribe in the country-so obviously bribery was involved at some stage of the game. I hope we all aren't going to catch the vapors now over a TIA (This is Africa) deal.

I was even hit up for a bribe at the Johannesburg Airport in South Africa (which I paid) to avoid any problems with the firearms transfer-They kind of have you over a barrel.

Given the corruption related massive problems with my hunt-I have joked many times that "Somebody didn't pay the right general."
So you're admitting you're guilty of violating 15 U.S.C. §§ 78dd-1?
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
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Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#80 Post by Spock » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:49 am

Bob Juch wrote:
Spock wrote:Going back to the genesis of the story and the origin of the 40-hour narrative. Does anyone know if the 40 Hour deal has ever come from a credible, official source or has it always come from Johnny Rodriguez at the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force(ZCTF)? Rodriguez is the guy who put out the false "Jericho" narrative to keep the narrative going.

It is interesting in those stories that came out after the debunkment of the story (ZCTF) still claims that another lion was poached. I am kind of guessing that (if that lion exists) the death of that lion does not fit the narrative-ie he was snared or some such-as we have heard nothing else about him.

The news stories today include allegations by the Zimbabwean government of bribery being involved.

Ok-we are going down the rabbit hole now-The Zimbabwean government alleging bribery falls into the Casablanca quote category.
" I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

Jeez, you can't drive down the road without paying a bribe in the country-so obviously bribery was involved at some stage of the game. I hope we all aren't going to catch the vapors now over a TIA (This is Africa) deal.

I was even hit up for a bribe at the Johannesburg Airport in South Africa (which I paid) to avoid any problems with the firearms transfer-They kind of have you over a barrel.

Given the corruption related massive problems with my hunt-I have joked many times that "Somebody didn't pay the right general."
So you're admitting you're guilty of violating 15 U.S.C. §§ 78dd-1?
I guess so. if $5 or 10 bucks counts. Besides-it was phrased as a "Tip".What are your experiences in "Bribery Land"?
Last edited by Spock on Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#81 Post by Spock » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:53 am

I would have liked to post this even without the late controversy.

Interesting account and video of how actual on-the-ground (supported by hunting) conservation works in Africa. The ranch in question is 850,000 acres. The video also contains a realistic assessment of the weaknesses of photo-tourism for a property like Bubye. Some interesting stuff on Rhinos as well.

http://theconservationimperative.com/?p=112

Pull Quote>>>Liebigs cattle ranch in Zimbabwe was one of the largest in the Africa. Situated in southwestern Matabeleland, Zimbabwe, it was originally staked out in the then Southern Rhodesian lowveld in the 1930’s by the cattle ranching family of Baron Justus von Liebig, supplier of canned ‘bully beef’ to World War II armies, and the inventor of the Oxo cube.<<<<

Another Pull Quote>>>In the 1990‘s, after a series of devastating droughts, the vast Lemco ranch was put up for sale and purchased by a consortium of investors. The property was re-named after the Bubye river, which ran through it, and converted into a wildlife reserve, sustained by profits to be generated from venison and sport hunting.

This 30-minute video tracks the history of the Bubye Valley Conservancy and the importance of sport-hunting, lion in particular, to it’s continuing existence.<<<<<

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#82 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:31 pm

Spock wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
Spock wrote:Going back to the genesis of the story and the origin of the 40-hour narrative. Does anyone know if the 40 Hour deal has ever come from a credible, official source or has it always come from Johnny Rodriguez at the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force(ZCTF)? Rodriguez is the guy who put out the false "Jericho" narrative to keep the narrative going.

It is interesting in those stories that came out after the debunkment of the story (ZCTF) still claims that another lion was poached. I am kind of guessing that (if that lion exists) the death of that lion does not fit the narrative-ie he was snared or some such-as we have heard nothing else about him.

The news stories today include allegations by the Zimbabwean government of bribery being involved.

Ok-we are going down the rabbit hole now-The Zimbabwean government alleging bribery falls into the Casablanca quote category.
" I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"

Jeez, you can't drive down the road without paying a bribe in the country-so obviously bribery was involved at some stage of the game. I hope we all aren't going to catch the vapors now over a TIA (This is Africa) deal.

I was even hit up for a bribe at the Johannesburg Airport in South Africa (which I paid) to avoid any problems with the firearms transfer-They kind of have you over a barrel.

Given the corruption related massive problems with my hunt-I have joked many times that "Somebody didn't pay the right general."
So you're admitting you're guilty of violating 15 U.S.C. §§ 78dd-1?
I guess so. if $5 or 10 bucks counts. Besides-it was phrased as a "Tip".What are your experiences in "Bribery Land"?
When I lived in Venezuela I was advised that I'd have to "tip" their TSA but never had a problem.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
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Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#83 Post by Spock » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:39 pm

The above-mentioned video related to Bubye also indicates that Oxford University(the Hwange researchers) is also conducting research on Bubye Lions.

The Oxford researcher is a very interesting part of the video.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#84 Post by BackInTex » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:40 pm

Spock wrote:I was even hit up for a bribe at the Johannesburg Airport in South Africa (which I paid) to avoid any problems with the firearms transfer-They kind of have you over a barrel.

Given the corruption related massive problems with my hunt-I have joked many times that "Somebody didn't pay the right general."
Bob Juch wrote:So you're admitting you're guilty of violating 15 U.S.C. §§ 78dd-1?
Spock wrote:I guess so. if $5 or 10 bucks counts. Besides-it was phrased as a "Tip".What are your experiences in "Bribery Land"?
Bob Juch wrote:When I lived in Venezuela I was advised that I'd have to "tip" their TSA but never had a problem.
"Facilitating payments" are not considered bribes under 15 U.S.C. §§ 78dd-1, of which those all seem to be.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#85 Post by Spock » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:48 am

This is from the Internets-so obviously take with a grain of salt. But it rings true. Possible comments from other people in the same camp as the dentist.

This brings up another question related to the genesis of the story. Did the stuff about them destroying the collar ever come from a credible official source?-or was it always from the proven liars at the NGO-The Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force(ZCTF)?-In addition to the Jericho stuff-they also very early put out allegations that Cecil was killed in the park.

Pull quote from the article>>>The collar was returned to Parks, as is the procedure.<<<<


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 3848516582
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For everyone that is/was "concerned" about the lion situation that has been blown out of proportion by social media. Read up. This is an email that my parents sent me. (They are in Africa right now).

Many of you have read or heard the news of the collared lion that has been shot here in Africa. Greg and I are in Zimbabwe, hunting with clients, at the camp of the very man that is being accused of "slaughtering a protected lion".

I would just like to clarify a few facts. Firstly, yes, the lion was collared but that does not mean protected the hunting concession we are on borders the park-- no fences, no gates, no wires. These animals are free to roam and cross into the areas surrounding the park at will. It is a given that when any animal is out of the designated boundaries of the park and in a hunting concession, it is fair game. Collared animals are shot by hunters once in a while and the law states that nothing has been done illegally, just that the collar is to be returned to the National Parks office.

Secondly, this lion was not lured out of the park by guts being dragged or calls being made. There was an elephant carcass, that died of natural causes, 2 1/2 km out of the parks boundary. The Professional Hunter (PH) and his hunter had seen a lion on the carcass so set up a blind to hunt that evening. The collared lion was the one that came in. No one realized the animal was collared until after it was harvested. The collar was returned to Parks, as is the procedure. It is unfortunate that this lion is a frequently photographed one in the parks as I believe that is why it has made national news. That, and the fact that it has a name..... Cecil.

Theo Bronkhorst has been threatened and dragged over the coals on this one. His family is being harassed and the Facebook comments have been horrendous. One in particular. "let me guess...this fed a village".
Here's where I'd like to explain something. Feeding the village is a phrase that is always taken in the literal sense. Yes, the meat of any animal is shared with the people but it's more than that. Here's how it works.
Every hunting concession has a native game scout appointed. This scout must accompany the PH and his hunters to be sure that nothing is shot that is not on quota.....quota meaning that only so many of one species can be taken during the year. This is recorded very officially in a ledger. Every animal has a trophy fee. This is divided up to the outfitter, the village and the government. The village gets their share of the meat. Now this is where Theo makes a difference. With the money, he has helped the people dig wells, pipe water and supplied tanks to their houses so they don't have to walk long distances to carry it. They have larger gardens now because of it, not to mention running water. He has built schools. He's helped put in solar panels so they have power. I have seen satellite dishes on some homes so I know they have tv. It is all this that is included in the phrase ' feed the village'.
I believe so many people do not understand hunting. They only see killing. Without hunting there is no conservation. Theo and his family are conservationists. They are not poachers. Everything done in the taking of this lion was done with professionalism. The hunter was legally licensed, the outfitter/PH, Theo, was licensed to legally hunt in that area.

It is disgusting to me how there is so much to-do about this one lion but nothing is said about the man who was killed just 2 nights ago by an elephant in the village of the scout who rides in the truck with us everyday. A human life was taken and it is not mentioned. We should be more concerned about Masugo and his family than Cecil. It is unfair that no one feels sorry for Masugo....nor for the hunter and PH that have been falsely accused of a crime they did not commit.
Please share this with as many people as you can so the real story also gets revealed. It surprises us that organizations like Dallas Club and Safari Club International (SCI), who's slogan is 'first for hunters', have not become involved to investigate and stand behind a fellow hunter. Let us all, as hunters, stand together.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#86 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Aug 05, 2015 7:08 am

"Hunting is conservation" and the NRA says "guns make you safer".

You're beating a dead lion.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#87 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:54 am

Image
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#88 Post by BackInTex » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:58 am

President Obama wrote:We can't go to other countries and tell them "You can't hunt your lions" and expect them to go "O.K."
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#89 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:18 pm

BackInTex wrote:
President Obama wrote:We can't go to other countries and tell them "You can't hunt your lions" and expect them to go "O.K."
Is that supposed to be true?
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#90 Post by jarnon » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:42 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
President Obama wrote:We can't go to other countries and tell them "You can't hunt your lions" and expect them to go "O.K."
Is that supposed to be true?
I can't find any mention of President Obama saying that. Nonetheless, it's probably a true statement. The Administration is taking action against poaching and the sale of elephant ivory and rhino horns, which is a much bigger problem than trophy hunting. Here's a real quote:
The loss of Zimbabwe’s Cecil the Lion has dominated recent news coverage. What has received less attention is that five elephants were killed in Tsavo West National Park in Kenya as well last week.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#91 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:53 pm

Costa Rica Becomes First Latin American Country to Ban Hunting for Sport

http://inhabitat.com/costa-rica-becomes ... for-sport/
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#92 Post by Spock » Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:05 pm

Bob Juch wrote:"Hunting is conservation" and the NRA says "guns make you safer".

You're beating a dead lion.
F-You Bob-Yeah, I'm the one who threw gasoline on a raging fire by putting out false narratives about Jericho's death and who posts stupid memes here with no basis in fact. However, you make a very valid point. Cecil's 15 minutes are about out along with the "2 minutes of Hate" towards trophy hunting and the narrative is stuck in. Now when responsible people(after considerable thought) are assessing what happened and making reasoned comments and arguments they are the ones "beating the dead lion."

Is this doctor in a responsible international conservation position beating a dead lion too?

https://www.oximity.com/article/Opinion ... hat-Will-1

Dr. Rosie Clooney is Chair of the Sustainable Use and Livelihoods Specialist Group at the International Union for Conservation of Nature

I wonder how many people who say "Follow the science on Global Warming" will pay any attention to what she says?

Main Pull Quote comes at the end
>>>>
Let us mourn Cecil, but be careful what we wish for.<<<<

Another quote deals with what happens after a lion ban.
>>>Game guards are unemployed, unable to feed their families, looking for any opportunity to obtain some income. Communities are angry – they were never asked by the world what they thought about this. Few journalists or social media activists ever reflected their side of the story. Conservation authorities and communities are again becoming enemies.<<<<<

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#93 Post by BackInTex » Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:29 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
President Obama wrote:We can't go to other countries and tell them "You can't hunt your lions" and expect them to go "O.K."
Is that supposed to be true?
Parody.

From a speech in Oregon, May 17 2008.
President Obama said, not wrote:We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#94 Post by Spock » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:08 pm

Op-ed from the New York Times of all places.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/opini ... eft-region

Comments by a former Zimbabwean villager-studying here in the US.-I guess this guy is just beating a dead lion too. This op-ed has to be causing headaches for some Social Justice warriors-LOL

"In Zimbabwe, We Don't Cry for Lions"
Pull Quote>>>In my village in Zimbabwe, surrounded by wildlife conservation areas, no lion has ever been beloved, or granted an affectionate nickname. They are objects of terror.<<<<

>>>And please, don’t offer me condolences about Cecil unless you’re also willing to offer me condolences for villagers killed or left hungry by his brethren, by political violence, or by hunger.<<<

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#95 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:20 am

Spock wrote:
Comments by a former Zimbabwean villager-studying here in the US.-I guess this guy is just beating a dead lion too. This op-ed has to be causing headaches for some Social Justice warriors-LOL
Spock,

If I thought you gave the slightest shit about those African villagers. other than as a ready source of cheap labor to aid you on your quest to bag a kudu or two in the wild, I might be moved. I commend your industriousness though. It's really tough to wade your way through the mountain of learned material on the internet opposing your point of view to find those one or two little gems that support you and make you feel good about what you're doing.
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#96 Post by Bob Juch » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:42 am

BackInTex wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:Is that supposed to be true?
Parody.

From a speech in Oregon, May 17 2008.
President Obama said, not wrote:We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK
Yeah, I remember when the teabaggers had a fit about that, "Obama is going to control our thermostats!"

You should have finished the quote though: "you know, you guys go ahead keep on using 25 percent of the world's energy, even though you only account for 3 percent of the population, and we'll be fine."
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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#97 Post by Spock » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:43 am

I am predicting that-at the end of the day-very little of the media narrative-that we know and love will turn out to be true. We have some of the best internet researchers in the world here-and obviously, we have sticklers for complete accuracy-it should be an easy job for somebody to answer my questions regarding the genesis of the story. Are there any credible, official sources for the beloved pieces of the narrative-ie the damaged collar? etc. Or has everything come from the proven liars at the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force(ZCTF).

I was pondering the possible 40-hour gap between wounding and death. This has always been treated as a diabolical event-but there have been no descriptions of what that time looked like. I will accept for the sake of discussion the existence of the time gap.

Once they had a wounded lion on their hands-the main priority became killing the lion with nobody getting hurt. The tracking would have been very careful, slow and methodical-especially in areas of thick cover. It is possible that they tracked for a full day-left off in the evening-and finished the job the second day.

I also find it interesting that the wounded lion apparently did not head back to the "Sanctuary" of the park once wounded-this might indicate that he was as much at home outside the park as he was in it.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#98 Post by Spock » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:11 am

Spock wrote:I am predicting that-at the end of the day-very little of the media narrative-that we know and love will turn out to be true. We have some of the best internet researchers in the world here-and obviously, we have sticklers for complete accuracy-it should be an easy job for somebody to answer my questions regarding the genesis of the story. Are there any credible, official sources for the beloved pieces of the narrative-ie the damaged collar? etc. Or has everything come from the proven liars at the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force(ZCTF).

I was pondering the possible 40-hour gap between wounding and death. This has always been treated as a diabolical event-but there have been no descriptions of what that time looked like. I will accept for the sake of discussion the existence of the time gap.

Once they had a wounded lion on their hands-the main priority became killing the lion with nobody getting hurt. The tracking would have been very careful, slow and methodical-especially in areas of thick cover. It is possible that they tracked for a full day-left off in the evening-and finished the job the second day.

I also find it interesting that the wounded lion apparently did not head back to the "Sanctuary" of the park once wounded-this might indicate that he was as much at home outside the park as he was in it.
Just another thought on the tracking process. The lion was not tracked in isolation. There are a lot of other potentially dangerous animals in the area. While the lion was the focus of the tracking process-It was also necessary to be observant and prepared for the STHTF from a totally unexpected direction. Any patch of thick cover might hold a bull elephant in musth, a grumpy bull buffalo injured by a lion or even another lion(s) attracted by the blood from the injured lion.

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Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#99 Post by Spock » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:41 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Spock wrote:
Comments by a former Zimbabwean villager-studying here in the US.-I guess this guy is just beating a dead lion too. This op-ed has to be causing headaches for some Social Justice warriors-LOL
Spock,

If I thought you gave the slightest shit about those African villagers. other than as a ready source of cheap labor to aid you on your quest to bag a kudu or two in the wild, I might be moved. I commend your industriousness though. It's really tough to wade your way through the mountain of learned material on the internet opposing your point of view to find those one or two little gems that support you and make you feel good about what you're doing.
Yes, I am sorry that I am taking this a little deeper than the Ricky Gervais/Bob Juch/SSS- "Trophy Hunters Suck" meme.

SSS>>>If I thought you gave the slightest shit about those African villagers. other than as a ready source of cheap labor to aid you on your quest to bag a kudu or two in the wild, I might be moved.<<<

Jeez, are we back here again? I have said before that my concern and focus is on the conservation of African wildlife and wildlands. The people only rise to a secondary concern-In the vernacular-You are right, I don't give a shit. However, I am a pragmatist on this and fully recognize that the key factor in said African conservation is the people. They have to buy into any conservation program for it too work. The recent column in the New York Times (an obscure scientific journal) by a native rural Zimbabwean highlights the attitude of millions of bush Africans towards , in particular, lions and elephants. Your urban, western sensibilities have a hard time grasping that if hunting is banned-they simply are not going to sit around and sing Kumbaya with the lions and elephants. They will poison and snare them and use any method to get rid of them as has/is happening in Kenya(where there is no hunting).

Regarding my little gem regarding the Bubye Conservancy-what is your take on what will happen there if lion hunting is banned? Besides, everybody is suddenly an expert on the Oxford lion research project in Hwange-If you watched the video-you would have learned that Oxford group runs a satellite research unit at Bubye-so it directly pertains to the main narrative. The Oxford guy states how valuable the research there is because it more closely approximates the conditions for lions across the continent(even in areas with no trophy hunting) than does the pure, National Geographic type research that takes place in the large protected areas like Hwange.

Regarding the IUCN scientist-obviously that is an obscure group to somebody who has never paid attention to the issue of preserving bio-diversity, but it is a pretty well-known group to those that have been paying attention. I love how you dismiss the scientist's points as a "Little Gem." Her arguments are well-known across the conservation community. Which of her points do you disagree with? What is your vision of what will happen if lion hunting is banned across the continent. It would be fun if you could go a little deeper than "Hunt with a camera, rather than a gun."

My hill to die on is stuff like that from the Bubye Conservancy and the IUCN scientist. Any of the "Cecil" specifics are secondary to me. However, as I said earlier, I am submitting that the Social Media narrative we all know and love, bears little resemblance to the real facts in the case.

Spock
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Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: RIP Cecil the lion

#100 Post by Spock » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:48 pm

I found another "Little Gem" that would work equally well in the old "They Want to Eat Meat" thread as it does here. It gives insight into the minds of rural Africans.

Botswana banned hunting in 2013 and is focusing on general tourism.

There is one old hunting area in Botswana that one would expect would be exceptionally well suited to photo-tourism.
This area is the "Chobe Forest Reserve." This is the triangular area surrounded on 3 sides by Chobe Park. It is close to the industrial tourism areas in northeast Chobe Park.
https://www.afrizim.com/Image/maps/bots ... obeNew.jpg

Some of the TPTB form some group or other visited the area and heard from villagers that are upset about the hunting ban. Keep in mind, this should be one of the premiere general tourism areas in Botswana. A passing thought on general tourism. The Chobe Forest Reserve includes several villages. I wonder if people who are going on a "Bucket List" trip to Africa really want to visit areas interspersed with villages. I suspect most would choose to visit areas where they have more of a semblance of wild Africa.

http://www.bw.undp.org/content/botswana ... llage.html

Pull Quote>>>They appreciated the visit and the initiatives of the Bio-Chobe Project and appealed for the project to promote rural sustainable livelihoods in order to relieve them of the absolute poverty. A number of issues were raised and they included;
 -Lack of livelihoods alternatives for communities leading to high levels of poverty.
- Lack of markets for community produce including crafts, thatch grass
- Human Wildlife Conflict
- Increasing elephant population
 Ban on hunting – they stated that the hunting ban has led to the projects that were supported by the Chobe Enclave Conservation Trust through revenues from the hunting quota coming to a standstill and they do not have hope of whether those projects will ever be resuscitated. The hunting ban has also deprived them access to game meat which was a good part of their diet during the hunting season.<<<

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