Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Building

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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#26 Post by BackInTex » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:55 am

Bob78164 wrote:Really? Silly me. I thought the reason they brought guns was to be able to threaten armed resistance should authorities attempt to remove them.
I'm not arguing your assertion of their reasons for being armed. But does that make them terrorists?

Regardless of the tools (guns, knives, fists), the threat of violent resistance to the government in such a situation is not terrorism.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#27 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:20 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:Bill Ayers. Now that is a real terrorist. Strange those calling for gun control here, and calling the Oregon protest terrorism, think and support political agendas and candidates the same as Bill Ayers. Like minds and all.
In the 2012 Presidential election, Barack Obama received 51% of the vote. That's a lot of like minds to Bill Ayers under your way of thinking.
It seems that you're proud of that. I would say that's a lot of weak, uninformed minds swayed by underhanded Rules for Radicals tricks.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#28 Post by franktangredi » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:49 am

Bob78164 wrote: I've seen my share of sit-ins. I don't remember guns being any part of them. Not in possession of the participants, anyway. --Bob
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#29 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:08 am

BackInTex wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
BackInTex wrote: No I wouldn't. They are not intimidating or attacking the populace. They are not terrorizing or attacking civilians. They are not trying to accomplish their goals through terror, just simple and open force.

I'm not saying I agree with their goal or tactics. Its just that they are not terrorists.
The populace feels threatened.
What populace? The reporters? You? No one with any intelligence feels threatened by these folks. The haven't threatened any populace.
School in Burns has been cancelled for this entire week. There are signs the residents have made saying "Go home!" I'd say they feel threatened.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#30 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:09 am

BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:What populace? The reporters? You? No one with any intelligence feels threatened by these folks. The haven't threatened any populace.
Why have guns if you're not prepared to use them? --Bob
Are you calling Bob J a terrorist? He admits to having guns.
Yes, but I don't bring them to protests or open carry them to scare the populace.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#31 Post by BackInTex » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:27 am

Bob Juch wrote: School in Burns has been cancelled for this entire week. There are signs the residents have made saying "Go home!" I'd say they feel threatened.
Feeling threatened and being threatened are two different things. SSS feels threatened by the fact that anyone has a gun, though he has only been threatened once (that he's talked about).

Making signs that say "Go home!" means they are annoyed. If they felt threatened, they'd be hole'd up in their homes and not trying to draw attention to themselves.

Can't speak about closing schools in a city 30 miles from the occupation. I suspect they are more concerned with the government's response (remember Waco) than what the occupiers might do.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#32 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:26 am

Here's what a British site has to say:

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/a ... W1b0NMi0sg
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#33 Post by ghostjmf » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:47 am

silvercam says:
City boy! They are surrounded by a national wildlife refuge. The key word is "wildlife" -- bears, wildcats, poisonous snakes, etc. Some dangerous critters don't listen to reason or stern warnings.
They're inside the refuge center. Probably not a lot of bears etc in there. I guess a poisonous (or otherwise) snake might slither in, but in general people who are armed for literal bear could probably make it between the center & their car without the arms.

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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#34 Post by SportsFan68 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:54 am

BackInTex wrote:Feeling threatened and being threatened are two different things. SSS feels threatened by the fact that anyone has a gun, though he has only been threatened once (that he's talked about).
I don't speak for SSS but will disagree with this. He talks about it all the time, most recently on New Year's Eve when he talked about firearms going off in the neighborhood. I agree with SSS that anytime stray shots are fired, there's a threat of injury or death.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#35 Post by BackInTex » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:58 am

Bob Juch wrote:Here's what a British site has to say:
You lost me at "British".
On Saturday a group of armed men stormed the headquarters of a government building in rural Oregon..
The building was unoccupied at the time. "stormed" is a tad strong. No doors were broken. Either they were unlocked or they found keys. The men simply entered the building.

Compared to the violence in Ferguson, MO or Baltimore, or protests even in Prairie View, TX, this is pretty tame.

But its white conservatives, so the need to amp up the language is evident.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#36 Post by BackInTex » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:45 am

SportsFan68 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:Feeling threatened and being threatened are two different things. SSS feels threatened by the fact that anyone has a gun, though he has only been threatened once (that he's talked about).
I don't speak for SSS but will disagree with this. He talks about it all the time, most recently on New Year's Eve when he talked about firearms going off in the neighborhood. I agree with SSS that anytime stray shots are fired, there's a threat of injury or death.
But those randomly firing the shots are not threatening you. Their actions are a threat to you just like a drunk driver is a threat. Are you prepared to call drunk drivers terrorists?
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#37 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:25 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:Really? Silly me. I thought the reason they brought guns was to be able to threaten armed resistance should authorities attempt to remove them.
I'm not arguing your assertion of their reasons for being armed. But does that make them terrorists?

Regardless of the tools (guns, knives, fists), the threat of violent resistance to the government in such a situation is not terrorism.
I don't think I've called them terrorists. I don't care (much) about the labels -- those are used (by both sides) primarily for political and emotional effect. I prefer evidence-based analysis.

But preserving the ability to implement armed resistance to government authority (which is unquestionably going on here) is precisely the rationale advanced by some (such as flock, and I think you at times) in support of "gun rights." I think this example of such armed resistance illustrates exactly what rights we're trying to preserve, and I hope gives pause to some opponents of regulation. And the price we're paying for such ready availability of firearms is awfully steep.

I'll ask again -- did these idiots acquire their weapons legally? --Bob
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#38 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:33 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:Here's what a British site has to say:
You lost me at "British".
On Saturday a group of armed men stormed the headquarters of a government building in rural Oregon..
The building was unoccupied at the time. "stormed" is a tad strong. No doors were broken. Either they were unlocked or they found keys. The men simply entered the building.

Compared to the violence in Ferguson, MO or Baltimore, or protests even in Prairie View, TX, this is pretty tame.

But it's white conservatives, so the need to amp up the language is evident.
The British considered the Boston Tea Party members terrorists. It all depends on your position.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#39 Post by BackInTex » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:03 pm

Bob78164 wrote:But preserving the ability to implement armed resistance to government authority (which is unquestionably going on here) is precisely the rationale advanced by some (such as flock, and I think you at times) in support of "gun rights." I think this example of such armed resistance illustrates exactly what rights we're trying to preserve, and I hope gives pause to some opponents of regulation. And the price we're paying for such ready availability of firearms is awfully steep.

I'll ask again -- did these idiots acquire their weapons legally? --Bob
This type of resistance is precisely what the 2nd amendment is for, IMO. Should such a cause arise that a larger portion of the populace supports it, it is imperative that such resistance be feasible.

As long as there is little real support, there is little real danger. If there is great support, then perhaps it is a righteous resistance.

But the ability to execute such a resistance is needed to keep the government in check.

Why do you call them idiots? Because they don't buy into your idea that the government is always good and should provide for all? Because if they are called 'idiots' by enough people the real idiots will think of them as idiots?

I don't think they are idiots. I do think they are fighting the battle the wrong way for a cause that does not yet (and I mean yet) justify such armed resistance.

I'm sure they purchased their guns legally. And aside from their current actions, probably would be able to continue to purchase them legally.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#40 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:52 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:But preserving the ability to implement armed resistance to government authority (which is unquestionably going on here) is precisely the rationale advanced by some (such as flock, and I think you at times) in support of "gun rights." I think this example of such armed resistance illustrates exactly what rights we're trying to preserve, and I hope gives pause to some opponents of regulation. And the price we're paying for such ready availability of firearms is awfully steep.

I'll ask again -- did these idiots acquire their weapons legally? --Bob
This type of resistance is precisely what the 2nd amendment is for, IMO. Should such a cause arise that a larger portion of the populace supports it, it is imperative that such resistance be feasible.
It's already feasible. It's called an election.

I wonder, by the way, how you'd have felt in 1942 if Japanese-Americans in large numbers had offered armed resistance to forced relocation. That incident is as close as I can think of as we've come to governmental action that would justify armed resistance.

And I think it's idiotic to provoke a siege and then bring so little food that you are asking for snacks within 24 hours of commencement. --Bob
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#41 Post by BackInTex » Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:02 pm

Bob78164 wrote:It's already feasible. It's called an election.
And if the election is cancelled?


Bob78164 wrote:I wonder, by the way, how you'd have felt in 1942 if Japanese-Americans in large numbers had offered armed resistance to forced relocation. That incident is as close as I can think of as we've come to governmental action that would justify armed resistance.
I know how'd I'd feel today. I might join them. I don't think it close.
Bob78164 wrote:And I think it's idiotic to provoke a siege and then bring so little food that you are asking for snacks within 24 hours of commencement. --Bob
I agree. But a lot of people live life that way. That's why we have welfare.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#42 Post by BackInTex » Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:09 pm

It was an interesting coincidence that "The Patriot" was on Sundance TV last night. I watched it on and off for several hours. A lot of what is depicted in the movie applies to the current situation and dialog.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#43 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:39 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:It's already feasible. It's called an election.
And if the election is cancelled?
Hasn't happened yet. Not during World War II. Not during the Civil War. Even the 9/11 attacks merely postponed the then-ongoing New York election for a week.

Remember, the "government" is composed of people, generally our neighbors. The best protection against an overreaching government is enforcers who would refuse to carry out an effort to impose despotism upon us. And that is (in my opinion) best accomplished by a widespread understanding of, and commitment to, the rule of law as opposed to romanticization of opposition by force to democratically arrived at decisions which one happens to disagree with. Because if civilians can disregard the rule of law and use force to get what they want, so can the military. And they're in a much better position to implement that decision. --Bob
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#44 Post by BackInTex » Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:51 pm

Bob78164 wrote: Because if civilians can disregard the rule of law and use force to get what they want, so can the military. And they're in a much better position to implement that decision. --Bob
Especially if the civilians are unarmed.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#45 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:59 pm

Remember, the "government" is composed of people, generally our neighbors.
That's where we disagree. The government, especially the federal government, is populated by career politicians and celebrities and by thousands of unnamed, unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats who maintain their empires no matter who attracts or buys the most votes in any particular election. The ideal of citizen government was taken away by the ruling class a long time ago. That is why it is so important to defend the Constitution against the people in both parties who continue to whittle it down. Especially the current President, who has done more to degrade the Constitution than any one person in my lifetime. The Constitution is the only defense we have against a dictatorship.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#46 Post by BackInTex » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:02 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:The Constitution is the only defense we have against a dictatorship.
We have our guns....for now.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#47 Post by littlebeast13 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:27 pm

Geez. Wackos who really think this incident is even remotely comparable to real acts of terrorism that injure and kill innocent people, or wackos who really believe we need to all be armed just in case overthrowing the fucking government sounds like a good idea. Damn, I just don't know who to side with in this thread.....

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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#48 Post by BackInTex » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:52 pm

littlebeast13 wrote:Geez. Wackos who really think this incident is even remotely comparable to real acts of terrorism that injure and kill innocent people, or wackos who really believe we need to all be armed just in case overthrowing the fucking government sounds like a good idea. Damn, I just don't know who to side with in this thread.....

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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#49 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:28 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Bob Juch wrote: School in Burns has been cancelled for this entire week. There are signs the residents have made saying "Go home!" I'd say they feel threatened.
Feeling threatened and being threatened are two different things. SSS feels threatened by the fact that anyone has a gun, though he has only been threatened once (that he's talked about).
I don't "feel threatened" by the fact that people have guns. I do feel less safe. I would feel threatened if I got into a car being driven by an obviously intoxicated person. I feel less safe when there are intoxicated people on the road. My feelings on New Year's Eve each year range somewhere in between, enough so that I don't stand in front of windows or want to go outside while that nonsense is going on.
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Re: Armed Domestic Terrorists Have Taken Over a Federal Buil

#50 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:31 pm

BackInTex wrote: Especially if the civilians are unarmed.
Please tell me one time in the history of this country when a group of armed civilians have prevented the military or police from implementing their way. They may be able to slow them down a bit or take a couple down along with them, but when the police or military come for a group of civilians in this country, the outcome is always the same. The civilians wind up in handcuffs, stretchers, or body bags.
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