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Bob78164 wrote:

flockofseagulls104 wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:You will take proudly to your grave your insistence on referring to transgender girls by male pronouns.

No matter how much pain your insistence on your bigotry causes the girls in question.

Do you know even one transgender person, ma'am? Do you insist on using the wrong pronoun when you address them? --Bob

We're not talking about pronouns bob-tel. If I interact with somebody I'll call them whatever they want to be called up to a point. Also if I think they're a jerk, I will call them that. Bob-tel, you are a jerk. See?


What we're talking about is deliberately mutilating a child. The reasons are irrelevant. It's just WRONG.

By calling it "mutilation" you're assuming your conclusion. That's like saying it's "mutilating" a child to fix her cleft palate because that's how she was born, so that's how she was intended to be.

But my most vehement objections are to the insistence of Spock (and BiT) on referring to her by male pronouns, even though she identifies as female. That's what demonstrates their bigotry. The court system can protect her from officious intermeddlers who would attempt to interfere with the medical treatment deemed appropriate by her mother, her guardian ad litem, a neutral judge, and her treating physician. It can't do much to protect her from the bigotry of those who refuse to acknowledge her gender. That's where the rest of us come in. --Bob

It is more like putting a child through surgery to correct a fully normal pallate because the child and one of the child's parents firmly believe there's something wrong with it. And I'm sure you know you can find a doctor and/or a judge to do anything you want.
A child of 6 may be old enough for democrats to grant the vote, but not to understand the consequences of this.

flockofseagulls104 wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:

flockofseagulls104 wrote: We're not talking about pronouns bob-tel. If I interact with somebody I'll call them whatever they want to be called up to a point. Also if I think they're a jerk, I will call them that. Bob-tel, you are a jerk. See?


What we're talking about is deliberately mutilating a child. The reasons are irrelevant. It's just WRONG.

By calling it "mutilation" you're assuming your conclusion. That's like saying it's "mutilating" a child to fix her cleft palate because that's how she was born, so that's how she was intended to be.

But my most vehement objections are to the insistence of Spock (and BiT) on referring to her by male pronouns, even though she identifies as female. That's what demonstrates their bigotry. The court system can protect her from officious intermeddlers who would attempt to interfere with the medical treatment deemed appropriate by her mother, her guardian ad litem, a neutral judge, and her treating physician. It can't do much to protect her from the bigotry of those who refuse to acknowledge her gender. That's where the rest of us come in. --Bob

It is more like putting a child through surgery to correct a fully normal pallate because the child and one of the child's parents firmly believe there's something wrong with it. And I'm sure you know you can find a doctor and/or a judge to do anything you want.
A child of 6 may be old enough for democrats to grant the vote, but not to understand the consequences of this.

So the bottom line is that you, who have never met the girl, know better than her mother, her guardian ad litem, the judge, and the treating physician what's best for her. And no, in a contested matter (which this is), you don't get to pick your judge. You also don't get to pick the guardian ad litem, who is required by the Court to protect the child's interests.

Your utter refusal to acknowledge that the people who actually know this girl know better than you do what's best for her is what betrays your prejudice. --Bob

tlynn78 wrote:And where will you be if the child decides at 14, 16, or twenty, mom was wrong, I'm a guy? He could never be made whole.

Do you know even one transgender person? Much less one who thought that transitioning was a mistake?

Your utter ignorance of how this plays out in real life convinces me that you don't, that you're arguing from nothing more than your own preconceptions of what's "normal," and that you don't actually care that the people who actually know this girl -- her mother, her guardian ad litem, the judge, and the treating physician -- actually know better than you do what's good for her. --Bob

Bob78164 wrote:

tlynn78 wrote:And where will you be if the child decides at 14, 16, or twenty, mom was wrong, I'm a guy? He could never be made whole.

Do you know even one transgender person? Much less one who thought that transitioning was a mistake?

That seems to be the prevalent attitude among the ignorant (see, e.g., Flock and Spock), that this is, at best, some type of childish game or fad or experimentation that, given time, the child will grow out of. And, at worst, they think this is the doing of a demented mother out to destroy the child. Transgendered people do have high suicide rates, in large part, because of the attitudes of people like those on the bored who view them as sick freaks who want to mutilate themselves. But, they don't magically grow out of it by studying the Bible and praying.

I was laughing about something this morning.

SSS and Bob are presenting this as a completely binary choice.

1) Suicide

Or

2) You cut their nuts off and sentence them to a lifetime of hormones.

I thought liberals were big fans of therapy and mental health counseling and so forth.

You aren't saying much for the the whole therapy and counseling industry.

Really, there are no therapy or counseling options that could help these kids through the rough times, at least until puberty is completed?

Spock wrote:I was laughing about something this morning.

SSS and Bob are presenting this as a completely binary choice.

1) Suicide

Or

2) You cut their nuts off and sentence them to a lifetime of hormones.

I thought liberals were big fans of therapy and mental health counseling and so forth.

You aren't saying much for the the whole therapy and counseling industry.

Really, there are no therapy or counseling options that could help these kids through the rough times, at least until puberty is completed?

Three guesses what treatment counselors recommend. I'll give you a hint. It's the internationally recognized standard treatment for gender dysphoria.

Your rhetoric ("sentence" them to a lifetime of treatment) continues to betray your bigotry. It would be more accurate to talk about "sentencing" them to a lifetime of memories of growing up as the wrong gender. Except that all too often, the kids involved choose to commute their own sentence.

But I really think we should talk about land or livestock management on a ranch. I don't know a damn thing about either subject, of course. But there's no reason that should stop me from talking about what's right for the land, and using the force of government to impose my views. Where would you suggest we begin talking about the things you're doing wrong that the government should correct? --Bob

Spock wrote:sentence them to a lifetime of hormones.

I guess by that same token, diabetics are sentenced to a lifetime of insulin.

When I come into contact with transgender people, and I have several times, I don't insult them, I don't bully them, I don't oppress them. When I address them directly, pronouns don't come into play at all. Politics doesn't come into play at all, at least for me. Sexuality does not come into play for me. I have never seen a biological male who is transgender female that is in any way attractive to me, but there are a lot of biological females that aren't at all attractive to me either. Am I supposed to pretend that they are? If there are people that are attracted to transgender people sexually, they are perfectly free to do whatever they want. What's it to me?
This pronoun business is just bullshit. A transgender female is a male by biology and female by choice. They have an advantage over me. They can be referred to by either gender pronouns. SO THE FUCK WHAT? They are people, and if I care to interact with them, I will. No, bob-tel, I have no one that I know of in my extended family that is transgender. If there were, I'm sure they would be accepted. But I can only assume it is because they are so rare. I don't know what the percentage of the population is, but I'm sure it is a small fraction.
I accept as fact that some people are wired differently, and that is ok. But I don't subscribe to the notion that it somehow makes them noble and worthy of societal praise because of that. I interact with people based on who they are, not what they look like.
As for people like polly and bob-tel: You guys seem to think that the vast majority of everyday people go around looking for transgender people so they can deliberately taunt and belittle them to the degree that they commit suicide. Sort of like you do to me every time I dare to express an opinion that you disagree with. But I have lived in this world for almost 2/3 of a century, I have lived in many parts of this country and I have interacted with thousands of people of all kinds. That is not the case.
What is true, and will be always be true, is that castrating a perfectly healthy pre-pubescent child is NOT right. Until puberty, that body part has only one function, and no child of six has any idea of the post pubescent function of that body part. No judge, doctor or even parent should have the right to do that to another human being. PERIOD. Once the person is of legal age, they can have at it if they want to. But not until then.

Let's not pretend that the suicides only work in one direction.

The years will start to stretch pretty long in front of some of these victims of castration without representation when they realize that after all they went through that they still aren't a girl.

Maybe the surgeons and counselors, instead of feeding into the parents' and kid's delusion, should be brutally honest and say something like:

"With surgery and hormones, you will never be an actual girl. The best we can hope for is that you will be a pretty eunuch."

Not quite as glamorous maybe, but honest.

Spock wrote:Let's not pretend that the suicides only work in one direction.

The years will start to stretch pretty long in front of some of these victims of castration without representation when they realize that after all they went through that they still aren't a girl.

Maybe the surgeons and counselors, instead of feeding into the parents' and kid's delusion, should be brutally honest and say something like:

"With surgery and hormones, you will never be an actual girl. The best we can hope for is that you will be a pretty eunuch."

Not quite as glamorous maybe, but honest.

Sex reassignment surgery is more advanced than you think. Many transgender women are indistinguishable from ordinary women who've had a hysterectomy.

But I think transgender people's main desire is, for the 99% of the time that nobody is examining their genitals, to be able to live their lives in their chosen gender without being bothered.

Also, I've never heard of irreversible procedures like castration done to kids or teenagers. The most drastic treatment is drugs that delay puberty until the patient can make a competent decision.

(As usual, this post will be ignored and both sides will just repeat the same arguments until you move on to another topic.)

silverscreenselect wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:

tlynn78 wrote:And where will you be if the child decides at 14, 16, or twenty, mom was wrong, I'm a guy? He could never be made whole.

Do you know even one transgender person? Much less one who thought that transitioning was a mistake?

That seems to be the prevalent attitude among the ignorant (see, e.g., Flock and Spock), that this is, at best, some type of childish game or fad or experimentation that, given time, the child will grow out of. And, at worst, they think this is the doing of a demented mother out to destroy the child. Transgendered people do have high suicide rates, in large part, because of the attitudes of people like those on the bored who view them as sick freaks who want to mutilate themselves. But, they don't magically grow out of it by studying the Bible and praying.

As it happens, I do. And that doesn't include at least three I can think of at the moment who've been in my office seeking to do (another) name change as they transition back. It's absolutely hysterical how anyone who disagrees with you must certainly be ignorant. You. Are. Utterly. Clueless. It's astounding.

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
What is true, and will be always be true, is that castrating a perfectly healthy pre-pubescent child is NOT right.

First, the fact that you, Spock and others keep using the term "castration" shows a bias by miscategorizing in a way that is intended to shock. This child would undergo puberty suppression treatment, which is medical, and can be reversed. It's not like what they did to Chinese eunuchs of how vets fix household pets. Before taking the "final" step of irreversible physical surgery, doctors and patients discuss how things are going to assess if the patient does want to follow through. So, there will be plenty of time and medical supervision before an irreversible choice is made with this child.

And while I'm glad that Flock is apparently the only person in this world in 2,000 years who is free from prejudice of any sort, a lot of people do make life miserable for trans individuals for a number of reasons. And it only takes a few, especially in a school setting, to make life miserable for this child, especially in a social media-crazy world in which stories about anyone who is different spread like crazy.

As far as name changes, are concerned, that's to be expected too. Doctors encourage people considering sexual reassignment therapy to adopt as many of the outward conventions of the other sex as possible to gauge how comfortable they would be on a long-term basis. It's part of the process to determine who really is transgendered and who is not (most transvestites and cross-dressers are perfectly comfortable as either heterosexual or homosexual men). One of the reasons trans people undergo counseling is to discover the actual nature of their feelings and what they might think of at first as a desire to be a woman may be homosexuality or a clothing fetish or some other condition. Doctors don't perform radical surgery unless they are satisfied of the person's actual psychological makeup.

The mother is not trying to rush this kid to a plastic surgeon to start chopping things off. She does want to start the process that will lead to them making a fully informed final decision under as little stress as possible when that time comes. What the father and Flock want to do is to substitute their own ideas about what is normal and right and sentence the child to years more discomfort in the vague hopes that he will "grow out of it."

Oh, they don't actually chop it off?
Never mind.

SSS>>>The mother is not trying to rush this kid to a plastic surgeon to start chopping things off. She does want to start the process that will lead to them making a fully informed final decision under as little stress as possible when that time comes. What the father and Flock want to do is to substitute their own ideas about what is normal and right and sentence the child to years more discomfort in the vague hopes that he will "grow out of it."<<<<

Putting them on puberty blockers with the Politically Correct presentation that they can make the decision later-basically makes the decision for them as they are further removed and isolated as their peers start their puberty process. Thus they (and their parents) are further confirmed in their delusions.

Puberty Blockers, boy, what a wonderful term in a "Brave New World" sense of the term.

I really wonder how far the "You are such a pretty, pretty princess" method of dealing with these kids will work when they are 25, 40 etc.

silverscreenselect wrote:What the father and Flock want to do is to substitute their own ideas about what is normal and right and sentence the child to years more discomfort in the vague hopes that he will "grow out of it."

The child presents as a girl. The appropriate pronoun is "she." --Bob

Spock wrote:I really wonder how far the "You are such a pretty, pretty princess" method of dealing with these kids will work when they are 25, 40 etc.

Well, you wouldn't wonder if you actually know any transgender people who were willing to share their status with you. Of course, given your obvious bigotry, I can't imagine why anyone would do so.

But I'm tired of talking about the management of this little girl's medical care. Let's talk about how Spock should manage his land and what we can do to make sure that he implements our ideas rather than his own, whether he likes it or not. Shall we start with his livestock management practices? Maybe his demonstrably wrong beliefs about how the tariffs will affect the price of soybeans? --Bob

Bob78164 wrote:

silverscreenselect wrote:What the father and Flock want to do is to substitute their own ideas about what is normal and right and sentence the child to years more discomfort in the vague hopes that he will "grow out of it."

The child presents as a girl. The appropriate pronoun is "she." --Bob

I think the overall question in this thread is 'who the fuck are you to decide what is appropriate?'
The child was born a male. The child 'presents' as a female, whatever that means. The child can be appropriately addressed as 'he', 'she' or even 'it'. depending on circumstances. So can any adult transgender people. YOU and the politically correct crowd DO NOT own the English language or any other language, as much as you think you do. And throwing epithets at those that don't recognize your supposed power doesn't change that. It is only further evidence that YOU are the bigots and the bullies.

flockofseagulls104 wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:

silverscreenselect wrote:What the father and Flock want to do is to substitute their own ideas about what is normal and right and sentence the child to years more discomfort in the vague hopes that he will "grow out of it."

The child presents as a girl. The appropriate pronoun is "she." --Bob

I think the overall question in this thread is 'who the fuck are you to decide what is appropriate?'
The child was born a male. The child 'presents' as a female, whatever that means. The child can be appropriately addressed as 'he', 'she' or even 'it'. depending on circumstances. So can any adult transgender people. YOU and the politically correct crowd DO NOT own the English language or any other language, as much as you think you do. And throwing epithets at those that don't recognize your supposed power doesn't change that. It is only further evidence that YOU are the bigots and the bullies.

So who the fuck are you?

Bob Juch wrote:

flockofseagulls104 wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:The child presents as a girl. The appropriate pronoun is "she." --Bob

I think the overall question in this thread is 'who the fuck are you to decide what is appropriate?'
The child was born a male. The child 'presents' as a female, whatever that means. The child can be appropriately addressed as 'he', 'she' or even 'it'. depending on circumstances. So can any adult transgender people. YOU and the politically correct crowd DO NOT own the English language or any other language, as much as you think you do. And throwing epithets at those that don't recognize your supposed power doesn't change that. It is only further evidence that YOU are the bigots and the bullies.

So who the fuck are you?

I am a male American citizen who has lived my life based on Martin Luthur King's ideals and the laws of this country who is sick to death of being called racist, sexist, whatever by self-righteous shitheads who don't know their asses from a hole in the ground. That's who I am.
Any other questions?

Bob78164 wrote:The child presents as a girl. The appropriate pronoun is "she." --Bob

Did you elbow a lot of people out of the way to praise the Emperor's new clothes? After all, he presented as a clothed person.

flockofseagulls104 wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:

silverscreenselect wrote:What the father and Flock want to do is to substitute their own ideas about what is normal and right and sentence the child to years more discomfort in the vague hopes that he will "grow out of it."

The child presents as a girl. The appropriate pronoun is "she." --Bob

I think the overall question in this thread is 'who the fuck are you to decide what is appropriate?'
The child was born a male. The child 'presents' as a female, whatever that means. The child can be appropriately addressed as 'he', 'she' or even 'it'. depending on circumstances. So can any adult transgender people. YOU and the politically correct crowd DO NOT own the English language or any other language, as much as you think you do. And throwing epithets at those that don't recognize your supposed power doesn't change that. It is only further evidence that YOU are the bigots and the bullies.

Whatever you say, Miss. If you’re unwilling to respect the pronouns chosen by the person being referred to, I’ll bear that in mind for our future exchanges. —Bob

flockofseagulls104 wrote: I am a male American citizen who has lived my life based on Martin Luthur King's ideals

Somehow, I doubt Martin Luther King would agree with you.

Bob78164 wrote:

flockofseagulls104 wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:The child presents as a girl. The appropriate pronoun is "she." --Bob

I think the overall question in this thread is 'who the fuck are you to decide what is appropriate?'
The child was born a male. The child 'presents' as a female, whatever that means. The child can be appropriately addressed as 'he', 'she' or even 'it'. depending on circumstances. So can any adult transgender people. YOU and the politically correct crowd DO NOT own the English language or any other language, as much as you think you do. And throwing epithets at those that don't recognize your supposed power doesn't change that. It is only further evidence that YOU are the bigots and the bullies.

Whatever you say, Miss. If you’re unwilling to respect the pronouns chosen by the person being referred to, I’ll bear that in mind for our future exchanges. —Bob

I am a biological male who actually identifies as who I am. I prefer the pronoun 'most honorable sir' and if you don't honor my wishes on that you are a bigot.

flockofseagulls104 wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
I think the overall question in this thread is 'who the fuck are you to decide what is appropriate?'
The child was born a male. The child 'presents' as a female, whatever that means. The child can be appropriately addressed as 'he', 'she' or even 'it'. depending on circumstances. So can any adult transgender people. YOU and the politically correct crowd DO NOT own the English language or any other language, as much as you think you do. And throwing epithets at those that don't recognize your supposed power doesn't change that. It is only further evidence that YOU are the bigots and the bullies.

Whatever you say, Miss. If you’re unwilling to respect the pronouns chosen by the person being referred to, I’ll bear that in mind for our future exchanges. —Bob

I am a biological male who actually identifies as who I am. I prefer the pronoun 'most honorable sir' and if you don't honor my wishes on that you are a bigot.

I’m just applying the Golden Rule here. If you won’t respect this girl’s choice, I feel no obligation, ma’am, to respect yours. —Bob

Bob78164 wrote:

flockofseagulls104 wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:Whatever you say, Miss. If you’re unwilling to respect the pronouns chosen by the person being referred to, I’ll bear that in mind for our future exchanges. —Bob

I am a biological male who actually identifies as who I am. I prefer the pronoun 'most honorable sir' and if you don't honor my wishes on that you are a bigot.

I’m just applying the Golden Rule here. If you won’t respect this girl’s choice, I feel no obligation, ma’am, to respect yours. —Bob

I guess you represent the illiteratti. I have not at one time referred to the person in question as anything but 'the child'. You are a self righteous bigot. You know as much about the situation as I do. Which in both our cases is next to nothing. My only contribution to this discussion was my opinion that surgery on a healthy child is wrong, which I believe it is. Everything else I've stated is fact. Yet you elevate your opinions to the level of religious conviction.
I know introspection is tough, but you need to examine your way over the top sactimoniousness.