Response to Terrorism

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silverscreenselect
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Response to Terrorism

#1 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue May 23, 2017 9:55 pm

BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:

Is there really a reason to turn this into a political thread today?This wasn't an act of God or an accident. Politics created the environment that caused and allowed this to happen. Delaying the discussion delays any actions that might prevent a future massacre, if preventing future massacres is something we might want to do.


Mark Steyn has a long column out today.

https://www.steynonline.com/7841/danger ... gerous-man

Closing paragraph
>>>"As I asked around Europe all last year: What's the happy ending here? In a decade it will be worse, and in two decades worse still, and then in three decades people will barely recall how it used to be, when all that warmth and vibrancy of urban life that Owen Jones hymns in today's Guardian is but a memory, and the music has died away, and Manchester is as dull and listless as today's Alexandria. If Mrs May or Frau Merkel has a happier ending, I'd be interested to hear it. If not, it is necessary not to carry on, but to change, and soon - before it's too late.<<<<
I cut and pasted this so it could have its own thread instead of stomping further on those well intentioned Bored members who didn't want to get involved in a political discussion.

Do we have such short memories that we forgot the last time that we got "angry" with terrorists? It happened after 9/11 and we got angry and we went after "them" without a whole lot of thought and we invaded Iraq, and what's the end result?

Thousands of dead Americans, tens of thousands of maimed Americans, billions of dollars down the drain. We got Saddam and Osama bin Laden, but the Taliban is still there, Al Qaeda is still there, and now we've got a new organization, ISIS that was created from the rubble we left in Iraq and is more powerful than the other two.

So, let's call them Islamic terrorists or losers or whatever and shake our fists and get angry. That will make Mark Steyn, Donald Trump, Spock, and a few others happy but what will that accomplish? Look through Mark Steyn's article and eliminate all the bloviating and what's left... build a wall, literally or figuratively. That strategy dates from the Great Wall of China. It didn't work then and it especially won't work now.

The enemy doesn't have to go over or around the wall. They can go right through it by means of the Internet, and that's what they're doing to radicalize new recruits. And the more we demonize them haphazardly and try to paint this as us vs. them, which we do with these harsh anti-immigration laws, far too many people will choose them over us.

Try reading things that real terrorism experts, not Steyn and Spock, write. Terrorists are not soldiers, they are criminals, and you catch them like criminals. And that requires building up a network of informants in the communities where they live, which you don't do by alienating that community.

As far as Mark Steyn's snide putdowns of carrying on, there's a very good reason the British have that attitude. Unlike Mark Steyn, who I'm guessing has never heard a shot fired in anger his entire life, the British lived through four years of terror attacks every night courtesy of the Luftwaffe. It was their determination to carry on that kept the war going long enough for the Allies to counterattack.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#2 Post by Bob78164 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:38 am

Let's not forget: When Donny wanted to justify his unconstitutional Muslim ban, he asked his Administration to come up with reasons it made sense. (Kind of like when he asked Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein to justify the decision he'd already made to fire Director Comey.) His Administration's findings, though, were that the people who became terrorists typically entered the United States as children or were born here (and are therefore citizens). Their parents aren't terrorists, and in fact often fervently oppose terrorism. The children are radicalized right here in the U.S.

The best cure for this, according to experts, is to make it safe for these kids to express their views. That way, they can be exposed to dissenting views in plenty of time to avoid radicalizing them.

I'm not willing to trade freedom of religion for the illusion of a little extra safety. And I'm really not willing to make that trade when the evidence shows that sacrificing freedom of religion actually makes us less safe. --Bob
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#3 Post by BackInTex » Wed May 24, 2017 7:00 am

silverscreenselect wrote: As far as Mark Steyn's snide putdowns of carrying on, there's a very good reason the British have that attitude. Unlike Mark Steyn, who I'm guessing has never heard a shot fired in anger his entire life, the British lived through four years of terror attacks every night courtesy of the Luftwaffe. It was their determination to carry on that kept the war going long enough for the Allies to counterattack.
Your inability to comprehend what you've read and apply it to history is outstanding.

The British did not simply "carry on" during WWII. They did not accept the daily bombings as "the new normal". The point Steyn makes is that the current attitude of Europe's elite IS these bombings are "the new normal", "get used to it", "carry on". Completely different from their attitudes during WWII.

These are not just criminal acts, or as you seem to feel, disenfranchised people acting out in frustration.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#4 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed May 24, 2017 7:32 am

BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote: As far as Mark Steyn's snide putdowns of carrying on, there's a very good reason the British have that attitude. Unlike Mark Steyn, who I'm guessing has never heard a shot fired in anger his entire life, the British lived through four years of terror attacks every night courtesy of the Luftwaffe. It was their determination to carry on that kept the war going long enough for the Allies to counterattack.
Your inability to comprehend what you've read and apply it to history is outstanding.

The British did not simply "carry on" during WWII. They did not accept the daily bombings as "the new normal". The point Steyn makes is that the current attitude of Europe's elite IS these bombings are "the new normal", "get used to it", "carry on". Completely different from their attitudes during WWII.

These are not just criminal acts, or as you seem to feel, disenfranchised people acting out in frustration.
Again, you misread and misinterpreted what I said. The British citizenry in World War II carried on as opposed to shutting their country down and hiding in bunkers for four years or seeking surrender terms. At the time the German air raids began, the fact was that the British didn't have the capability to launch an attack against the Germans. So, they didn't "accept the new normal" (a term I didn't use) as something to be borne indefinitely but rather something to persevere through until their military was strong enough to do something about it.

The British police are doing something about it:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ast-london

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -link.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... -8-years-/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... hed-by-mi5

These raids and arrests don't get the publicity that a terror attack gets but they prevent others. And these headlines came in the month before the Manchester bombing. They don't have the same motivation as many other criminals do, but they operate in the same manner. Significantly, they don't operate in the same manner as military organizations do. And you catch them the same way you catch other criminals. There's a big jump between being "frustrated" and becoming radicalized as these bombers were. By the time they are radicalized, it's often too late to do anything but capture or kill them when they commit crimes, but drying up the pool of potential radicals and taking away the money and internet resources needed to radicalize them will mean that there will be fewer of them you will have to capture or kill.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#5 Post by jarnon » Wed May 24, 2017 8:22 am

News reports say the Manchester bomber was born in England; his parents came from Libya. There was no way to anticipate, decades ago, that accepting immigrants from Libya could create future danger. And I don't expect Great Britain, with its colonial history, to eliminate all immigration, just as America will never seal itself off.

The neighborhood where the bomber lived is a hotbed of crime and radicalism. England, like other European countries, has to figure out how to assimilate these communities into the mainstream.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#6 Post by BackInTex » Wed May 24, 2017 8:36 am

jarnon wrote: There was no way to anticipate, decades ago, that accepting immigrants from Libya could create future danger.
What will they say decades from now?
jarnon wrote: And I don't expect Great Britain, with its colonial history, to eliminate all immigration, just as America will never seal itself off.
No one has or is proposing that.
jarnon wrote: England, like other European countries, has to figure out how to assimilate these communities into the mainstream.
And there is part of the problem. Recent history shows immigrants not assimilating but rather segregating themselves, there and here. And the PC crowd applauds it rather than condemns it.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#7 Post by jarnon » Wed May 24, 2017 8:43 am

BackInTex wrote:
jarnon wrote: There was no way to anticipate, decades ago, that accepting immigrants from Libya could create future danger.
What will they say decades from now?
We're probably now admitting immigrants from a country that, decades from now, will be our worst enemy. And since we agree that shutting off all immigration is a bad idea, the only alternative is to prevent the children of immigrants from growing up hating their own country.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#8 Post by Bob Juch » Wed May 24, 2017 9:01 am

What are you going to do about people like this?
A neo-Nazi converted to Islam and killed 2 roommates for ‘disrespecting’ his faith, police say

A former neo-Nazi who converted to Islam is accused of killing his two roommates because they “disrespected” his new faith, police said.

Last Friday evening, police arrested 18-year-old Devon Arthurs after he briefly held three people at gunpoint at a smoke shop in Tampa, then surrendered to officers.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#9 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed May 24, 2017 9:04 am

BackInTex wrote: Recent history shows immigrants not assimilating but rather segregating themselves, there and here. And the PC crowd applauds it rather than condemns it.
You might look at US history for some context here. Immigrant communities in the United States, especially in urban areas, were segregated. Places like Little Italy and Chinatown weren't merely marketing names for specialized shopping districts; they were practically foreign enclaves in the middle of New York City and other large cities. They had their own stores, newspapers, forms of entertainment, and many of the first generation immigrants never learned English. Assimilation takes time, especially when there's prejudice.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#10 Post by Bob78164 » Wed May 24, 2017 11:58 am

Moreover, some of our best defense against homegrown radicals purporting to act in the name of Islam is homegrown Muslims who oppose radicalization and violence. How often will they go out of their way in ambiguous situations if they justifiably feel they are being targeted by the government for special treatment because of their religion? --Bob
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#11 Post by Spock » Fri May 26, 2017 10:24 am

SSS>>> Unlike Mark Steyn, who I'm guessing has never heard a shot fired in anger his entire life,<<<<

Actually, he is probably a lot closer than you might guess to have heard a shot fired in anger. One of his themes is many of the people who have shared stages and opinions with him on the issue (ex-muslims and so forth) have been attacked/killed/are in hiding etc-because of "anti-muslim' views.

Bob#'s>>>The best cure for this, according to experts, is to make it safe for these kids to express their views. That way, they can be exposed to dissenting views in plenty of time to avoid radicalizing them.<<<

Since Manchester, dozens of people on a bus full of Coptic Christians were killed in Egypt-One of countless attacks on Copts in that country by Muslims.

Are Muslim kids in Egypt not able to freely express Islamic views?

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Re: Response to Terrorism

#12 Post by Bob78164 » Fri May 26, 2017 10:42 am

Spock wrote:SSS>>> Unlike Mark Steyn, who I'm guessing has never heard a shot fired in anger his entire life,<<<<

Actually, he is probably a lot closer than you might guess to have heard a shot fired in anger. One of his themes is many of the people who have shared stages and opinions with him on the issue (ex-muslims and so forth) have been attacked/killed/are in hiding etc-because of "anti-muslim' views.

Bob#'s>>>The best cure for this, according to experts, is to make it safe for these kids to express their views. That way, they can be exposed to dissenting views in plenty of time to avoid radicalizing them.<<<

Since Manchester, dozens of people on a bus full of Coptic Christians were killed in Egypt-One of countless attacks on Copts in that country by Muslims.

Are Muslim kids in Egypt not able to freely express Islamic views?
What does that have to do with the best tactics for preventing attacks in liberal democracies? --Bob
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#13 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri May 26, 2017 10:44 am

Spock wrote:Bob#'s>>>The best cure for this, according to experts, is to make it safe for these kids to express their views. That way, they can be exposed to dissenting views in plenty of time to avoid radicalizing them.<<<

Since Manchester, dozens of people on a bus full of Coptic Christians were killed in Egypt-One of countless attacks on Copts in that country by Muslims.

Are Muslim kids in Egypt not able to freely express Islamic views?
Somehow, we hopped from talking about stopping terror in countries like Britain and the US to something that happened in Egypt, not exactly a bastion of free speech.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#14 Post by jarnon » Fri May 26, 2017 11:36 am

jarnon wrote:The neighborhood where the bomber lived is a hotbed of crime and radicalism. England, like other European countries, has to figure out how to assimilate these communities into the mainstream.
In this article, a terrorism expert describes the environment that breeds losers like the Manchester bomber.
Haaretz wrote:Salman Abedi, the suicide bomber who killed 22 people at a Manchester pop concert this week, started life advantageously enough: to parents who had fled Gadhafi’s Libya for a new life in Britain. But actually it was that kind of dislocation that would send him off kilter two decades later, says Olivier Roy, one of France’s top experts on Islamic terrorism.

“An estimated 60 percent of those who espouse violent jihadism in Europe are second-generation Muslims who have lost their connection with their country of origin and have failed to integrate into Western societies,” Roy says.

They are subject to a “process of deculturation” that leaves them ignorant of and detached from both the European society and the one of their origins. The result, Roy argues, is a dangerous “identity vacuum” in which “violent extremism thrives.”

Born in Britain in 1994, Abedi would later be drawn to violent fundamentalism after a life in limbo. On the one hand, he tried to reconnect with Libya, where he traveled shortly before this week’s attack, while on the other, he strove to emulate the same British young people he killed.

“Unlike second generations like Abedi’s, third generations are normally better integrated in the West and don’t account for more than 15 percent of homegrown jihadis,” Roy says. “Converts, who also have an approach to Islam decontextualized from any culture, account for about 25 percent of those who fall prey to violent fundamentalism.”

It’s a pattern that can be traced from second-generation Khaled Kelkal, France’s first homegrown jihadi in 1995, to the Kouachi brothers who attacked satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo in Paris in 2015. The rule also applies to foreign fighters such as Sabri Refla, the Belgian-born son of a Moroccan father and a Tunisian mother who left for Syria at 18 “after espousing an Islam completely unrelated to our background,” says his grieving mother Saliha Ben Ali.

With little if any understanding of religion or Islamic culture, young people like Abedi turn to terrorism out of a “suicidal instinct” and “a fascination for death,” Roy says. This key element is exemplified by the jihadi slogan first coined by Osama bin Laden: "We love death like you love life.”

“The large majority of Al-Qaida and Islamic State jihadis, including the Manchester attacker Abedi, commit suicide attacks not because it makes sense strategically from a military perspective or because it’s consistent with the Salafi creed,” Roy says. “These attacks don’t weaken the enemy significantly, and Islam condemns self-immolation as interference with God’s will. These kids seek death as an end-goal in itself.”

In his recent book “Jihad and Death: The Global Appeal of Islamic State," Roy argues that about 70 percent of these young people have scant knowledge of Islam, and suggests they are “radical” before even choosing Islam. He dubs them “born again Muslims” who lead libertine lives before their sudden conversion to violent fundamentalism.

“It’s the Islamification of radicalism that we need to investigate, not the radicalization of Islam,” Roy says, begging the question of why radical youths would choose violent fundamentalist Islam over other destructive creeds to engage in terrorism.

These “new radicals” embrace the Islamic State’s narrative as it’s the only radical narrative available in the “global market of fundamentalist ideologies,” Roy says. “In the past they would have been drawn, for example, to far-left political extremism.” Half of violent jihadis in France, Germany and the United States also have criminal records for petty crime, just like Abedi, who appears to have been radicalized without the involvement of the local mosque or religious community, an element that mirrors patterns in the rest of Europe.

According to Roy, while ultraconservative Salafi Islam is certainly a problem − its followers object to the basic values underpinning a tolerant and secular Western society − it shouldn’t be conflated with violent extremism. And when evaluating the origins of young men like Abedi, one shouldn’t overstate the role of Muslim revanchism in the developing world, a political strand feeding on the West’s colonial legacy and interventionism in the Middle East.

“Had he been concerned about acts of Western imperialism, he would have mentioned the British attack in Libya in 2012, making his act political in one way or another,” Roy says.

Abedi was very much part of the British youth culture he attacked, “he killed himself as part of that society,” Roy says from his office in Florence, where he’s a professor at the European University Institute. “Had he been imbued with Islamic culture and bent toward the ambition of establishing an Islamic state in the Middle East, he would have probably not have known about pop singer Ariana Grande,” Roy notes, adding that “he would have traveled to Syria or Libya instead.”

If comments by French Interior Minister Gérard Collomb are confirmed, Abedi will join the long list of returning jihadis who have struck in Europe after fighting in Syria. But Roy also notes some positive news: Hundreds of foreign fighters from Europe are seeking a safe return to Europe by turning themselves in to their embassies in Turkey, according to the Italian press.

“This means they don’t have the suicidal instincts characterizing terrorists like Abedi,” Roy says, though he warns that the “hegemony of secularism” and the rejection of “all forms of religiosity” in the West have created a spiritual vacuum that can be a breeding ground for fundamentalism.
The next step is to figure out how to change that environment. That would be a more helpful discussion than arguing about simplistic issues like Muslim bans.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#15 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Fri May 26, 2017 12:34 pm

What is not being discussed is that Trump wants this temporary stop of immigration from certain countries... Why? He said so that we can figure out what the hell is going on and what to do about it. Well, since the temporary stop is being blocked, why are we not just going forward and figuring out what the hell is going on and what we should do in the meantime?
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#16 Post by Bob Juch » Fri May 26, 2017 12:37 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:What is not being discussed is that Trump wants this temporary stop of immigration from certain countries... Why? He said so that we can figure out what the hell is going on and what to do about it. Well, since the temporary stop is being blocked, why are we not just going forward and figuring out what the hell is going on and what we should do in the meantime?
Because he doesn't really want a temporary block.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#17 Post by Bob78164 » Fri May 26, 2017 12:41 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:What is not being discussed is that Trump wants this temporary stop of immigration from certain countries... Why? He said so that we can figure out what the hell is going on and what to do about it. Well, since the temporary stop is being blocked, why are we not just going forward and figuring out what the hell is going on and what we should do in the meantime?
Because as usual, what he said was a lie.

Donny actually just wants to pander to prejudice by barring as many Moslems as possible. The national security pretext was a lie, particularly since most of these people are either born here or arrive here as young kids and become radicalized years or decades after their arrival. Donny's Administration has already told him how to address the issue. He just doesn't like the answer.

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Re: Response to Terrorism

#18 Post by earendel » Fri May 26, 2017 12:43 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:What is not being discussed is that Trump wants this temporary stop of immigration from certain countries... Why? He said so that we can figure out what the hell is going on and what to do about it. Well, since the temporary stop is being blocked, why are we not just going forward and figuring out what the hell is going on and what we should do in the meantime?
As I understand it, the countries he named had zero instances of terrorism on U.S. soil, whereas countries such as Saudi Arabia, from which the 9/11 hijackers came, wasn't included in the ban. Moreover, the problem doesn't seem to be with immigrants as with their 2nd generation non-acculturated children.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#19 Post by jarnon » Fri May 26, 2017 12:54 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:What is not being discussed is that Trump wants this temporary stop of immigration from certain countries... Why? He said so that we can figure out what the hell is going on and what to do about it. Well, since the temporary stop is being blocked, why are we not just going forward and figuring out what the hell is going on and what we should do in the meantime?
The EO calls for a "worldwide review" to determine which countries have inadequate vetting procedures. According to Tillerson, that review started when the first EO was issued, and helped get Iraq off the banned list. (I think outcry from Congress and veterans' groups helped too.) But the review is just as likely to add countries to the ban as remove them.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#20 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri May 26, 2017 1:22 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:Why? He said so that we can figure out what the hell is going on and what to do about it.
Trump could remain in office 100 years and not figure out what the hell is going on and what to do about it.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#21 Post by Bob Juch » Fri May 26, 2017 3:12 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:What is not being discussed is that Trump wants this temporary stop of immigration from certain countries... Why? He said so that we can figure out what the hell is going on and what to do about it. Well, since the temporary stop is being blocked, why are we not just going forward and figuring out what the hell is going on and what we should do in the meantime?
Because as usual, what he said was a lie.

Donny actually just wants to pander to prejudice by barring as many Moslems as possible. The national security pretext was a lie, particularly since most of these people are either born here or arrive here as young kids and become radicalized years or decades after their arrival. Donny's Administration has already told him how to address the issue. He just doesn't like the answer.

Sooner or later people will realize (as students of Trump University eventually did) that when a sentence begins, "Trump said," there's no reason to finish reading the sentence. --Bob
You should finish reading the sentence and believe the exact opposite.
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#22 Post by Spock » Fri May 26, 2017 6:25 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Spock wrote:Bob#'s>>>The best cure for this, according to experts, is to make it safe for these kids to express their views. That way, they can be exposed to dissenting views in plenty of time to avoid radicalizing them.<<<

Since Manchester, dozens of people on a bus full of Coptic Christians were killed in Egypt-One of countless attacks on Copts in that country by Muslims.

Are Muslim kids in Egypt not able to freely express Islamic views?
Somehow, we hopped from talking about stopping terror in countries like Britain and the US to something that happened in Egypt, not exactly a bastion of free speech.
We would like to think of the situation in the west as totally separate/isolated from the rest of the world. However, I am not sure that is the correct view.

When you look globally at the "Bloody Borders of Islam" across thousands of miles from the Phillipines to the African Sahel to the English Midlands to Java to attacks on Copts in Egypt-etc, etc-the common denominator is Islam.

Is an Islamic suicide bomber in Java really a different problem than an Islamic suicide bomber in Manchester?

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Re: Response to Terrorism

#23 Post by Estonut » Fri May 26, 2017 8:11 pm

Bob78164 wrote:Sooner or later people will realize (as students of Trump University eventually did) that when a sentence begins, "Trump said," there's no reason to finish reading the sentence.
Unless that sentence is "they'll let you grab 'em by the pussy." Trump lies about every single thing, yet your ilk picks one statement as truth.
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Bob78164
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Re: Response to Terrorism

#24 Post by Bob78164 » Fri May 26, 2017 9:30 pm

Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:Sooner or later people will realize (as students of Trump University eventually did) that when a sentence begins, "Trump said," there's no reason to finish reading the sentence.
Unless that sentence is "they'll let you grab 'em by the pussy." Trump lies about every single thing, yet your ilk picks one statement as truth.
Nope. I don't care whether that one is true or not. What's damning about it is that Donny thought that was bragworthy. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Response to Terrorism

#25 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri May 26, 2017 9:31 pm

Spock wrote:
Is an Islamic suicide bomber in Java really a different problem than an Islamic suicide bomber in Manchester?
The problem may be similar, but the solutions won't necessarily be. Condemning "radical Islam" may make you and some right wingers feel all warm and fuzzy or morally superior inside, but it does nothing to solve the problem. The only solutions I hear are immigration freezes. I don't think an immigration freeze is going to work in Indonesia, and I also don't think we're going to "liberate" every Islamic country that has radical elements.
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