WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

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WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#1 Post by mellytu74 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:31 am

Wait a minute.

This is a real thing?

I thought it was someone and their Merry Men having a good time. And it was OK with the originator.

Oh, dear.

OK. I will leave my answers for Monday and Tuesday up but will participate no further.

Stealing something that is somebody else's purview is not fair.

It is the reason we copyright our screenplays and books and such, WHY we send things to the WGA to register. Why graphics from places like Dover are listed as "permission free" or not.

My own fault for not paying attention.

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#2 Post by littlebeast13 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:37 am

mellytu74 wrote:Wait a minute.

This is a real thing?

I thought it was someone and their Merry Men having a good time. And it was OK with the originator.

Oh, dear.

OK. I will leave my answers for Monday and Tuesday up but will participate no further.

Stealing something that is somebody else's purview is not fair.

It is the reason we copyright our screenplays and books and such, WHY we send things to the WGA to register. Why graphics from places like Dover are listed as "permission free" or not.

My own fault for not paying attention.

Very real.

And it's been a continuing pattern with this person for years (Among other offenses he's notorious for).... even before he came to this Bored.

The lack of response from the perpetrator of this theft should also be very telling for those who think he's still worth anyone's time on this Bored...

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#3 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:37 am

mellytu74 wrote:Wait a minute.

This is a real thing?

I thought it was someone and their Merry Men having a good time. And it was OK with the originator.

Oh, dear.

OK. I will leave my answers for Monday and Tuesday up but will participate no further.

Stealing something that is somebody else's purview is not fair.

It is the reason we copyright our screenplays and books and such, WHY we send things to the WGA to register. Why graphics from places like Dover are listed as "permission free" or not.

My own fault for not paying attention.
It is a real thing, as evidenced by Vandal's post in the linked thread. But I almost missed it as well. I don't remember (I could check), but I think I'm the one who Stickied the original game thread. I would not have done so if I hadn't made the same mistake you did, and I will not be doing so for this misappropriation in the future. --Bob
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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#4 Post by ShamelessWeasel » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:23 pm

mellytu74 wrote:Wait a minute.

This is a real thing?

I thought it was someone and their Merry Men having a good time. And it was OK with the originator.

Oh, dear.

OK. I will leave my answers for Monday and Tuesday up but will participate no further.

Stealing something that is somebody else's purview is not fair.

It is the reason we copyright our screenplays and books and such, WHY we send things to the WGA to register. Why graphics from places like Dover are listed as "permission free" or not.

My own fault for not paying attention.
Feel free to do what I did when I realized the situation. Edit your response and remove your answers NOW.

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#5 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:44 pm

I'm not sure how much copying of other people's games is "fair."

I do know that most of the games I posted, as well as those a number of others have posted are based on Frank Tangredi's template, down to the use of the term "Tangredi." I started doing this on the other Bored because apparently that was the puzzle structure commonly in use there, and continued it here. I never consciously used the same Tangredi Frank did, but I'm sure that over the passage of time, there have been some duplication of questions somewhere.

If I have offended Frank or anyone else on the Bored by using his format, I apologize.
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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#6 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:13 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:I'm not sure how much copying of other people's games is "fair."

I do know that most of the games I posted, as well as those a number of others have posted are based on Frank Tangredi's template, down to the use of the term "Tangredi." I started doing this on the other Bored because apparently that was the puzzle structure commonly in use there, and continued it here. I never consciously used the same Tangredi Frank did, but I'm sure that over the passage of time, there have been some duplication of questions somewhere.

If I have offended Frank or anyone else on the Bored by using his format, I apologize.
I see what you and others do as different. I see the consistent use of the term "Tangredi" in this context as an homage intended to acknowledge his creation (at least in our community) of the device. I think that using a game structure is fair game (unless devising the structure itself requires a fair amount of creativity).

My issue with what Fireball is doing is specifically his use of the term "TEN" to brand his game, over the objections of Vandal, who actually popularized the term and intends it to be associated with a specific format. If Fireball had given his game (which doesn't use the same format Vandal has created for TEN) a different title, I'd probably be playing it. --Bob
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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#7 Post by franktangredi » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:58 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:I'm not sure how much copying of other people's games is "fair."

I do know that most of the games I posted, as well as those a number of others have posted are based on Frank Tangredi's template, down to the use of the term "Tangredi." I started doing this on the other Bored because apparently that was the puzzle structure commonly in use there, and continued it here. I never consciously used the same Tangredi Frank did, but I'm sure that over the passage of time, there have been some duplication of questions somewhere.

If I have offended Frank or anyone else on the Bored by using his format, I apologize.
I wasn't aware of this thread until somebody pointed it out to me just now. I certainly am not offended by anyone using the format I created. That would just seem silly.

Should somebody borrow a title if asked not to? I guess not. But I personally think it's not a big enough deal to make a fuss about. No matter how abrasive the person involved is.

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#8 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:38 pm

franktangredi wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:I'm not sure how much copying of other people's games is "fair."

I do know that most of the games I posted, as well as those a number of others have posted are based on Frank Tangredi's template, down to the use of the term "Tangredi." I started doing this on the other Bored because apparently that was the puzzle structure commonly in use there, and continued it here. I never consciously used the same Tangredi Frank did, but I'm sure that over the passage of time, there have been some duplication of questions somewhere.

If I have offended Frank or anyone else on the Bored by using his format, I apologize.
I wasn't aware of this thread until somebody pointed it out to me just now. I certainly am not offended by anyone using the format I created. That would just seem silly.

Should somebody borrow a title if asked not to? I guess not. But I personally think it's not a big enough deal to make a fuss about. No matter how abrasive the person involved is.
Titles are odd creatures in intellectual property law. It's pretty well established that you can't copyright a title. But I see this as more akin to a trademark issue, where the unauthorized use of the word misleadingly or falsely suggests approval or endorsement. The premise for that conclusion is that the original title (in this case, TEN!) is associated with its original creator (Vandal). --Bob
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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#9 Post by franktangredi » Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:08 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
franktangredi wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:I'm not sure how much copying of other people's games is "fair."

I do know that most of the games I posted, as well as those a number of others have posted are based on Frank Tangredi's template, down to the use of the term "Tangredi." I started doing this on the other Bored because apparently that was the puzzle structure commonly in use there, and continued it here. I never consciously used the same Tangredi Frank did, but I'm sure that over the passage of time, there have been some duplication of questions somewhere.

If I have offended Frank or anyone else on the Bored by using his format, I apologize.
I wasn't aware of this thread until somebody pointed it out to me just now. I certainly am not offended by anyone using the format I created. That would just seem silly.

Should somebody borrow a title if asked not to? I guess not. But I personally think it's not a big enough deal to make a fuss about. No matter how abrasive the person involved is.
Titles are odd creatures in intellectual property law. It's pretty well established that you can't copyright a title. But I see this as more akin to a trademark issue, where the unauthorized use of the word misleadingly or falsely suggests approval or endorsement. The premise for that conclusion is that the original title (in this case, TEN!) is associated with its original creator (Vandal). --Bob
It sounds more like a breach of courtesy than a breach of ethics to me. (I'm closer to the line of legal infringement whenever I do one of my Family Feud surveys.)

The real question for me is, would people be standing so firm on this principle if it was anybody else involved?

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#10 Post by Vandal » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:02 pm

This whole thing came about when I saw the name of a Bored challenge I created and hosted several times being re-used without my permission (aka, hijacked). I would have been fine with another BB hosting it, even Pastor Fireball, had that BB simply asked me. I would have requested that the simple parameters of the game (ten categories, ten questions, ten days) be adhered to so that the unique nature of the game remained intact.

That didn't happen. After I saw the rules and new parameters posted I insisted that he change the name because the game he described was not close to the original. He chose not to do the right thing and change the name.

It could have been called "Super Summer Slam" or "X" or "Diez" some generic name, but he chose TEN! But it's not TEN!

As a writer, protecting my work (ideas, completed manuscripts and titles) is paramount. I know being on a private message board means that this is not a legal issue (nobody is suing anyone for anything) but rather an ethical one:

I don't want my intellectual property used in this way.

When I wanted to take over Decades a few years back, I contacted Fanny and got her permission because she was the creator of that game. It was not public domain. If she said no, I wouldn't have hosted it. Plus, I didn't turn it into "Super Duper Decades" or some other lame variation. That would have been wrong. I chose to do the right thing.

I also asked Frank Tangredi's permission to use the term "Tangredi" and examples from a few of his games on another site (geocaching.com). He probably would've never known otherwise, but that's not what was important. I did what was what ethically right. I have also asked permission to use BBs as characters in some crappy promos.

So if you are considering playing the latest variation of TEN!, know this:

1) I did not and will not give my permission to the Pastor Fireball to use the title in this manner.

2) I will not not hold it against anyone who chooses to play. For what it's worth, it appears to be a well-thought out game with lots of nuance. It's just not TEN!. Not even close. You decide.

3) I will continue to host Bored challenges in the future. I have to create content, whether it's stories or games. I value them very much. If anyone is interested in hosting a challenge using one of my titles, just ask. We'll have a discussion and I'll likely give you my blessing.

4) Hijacking should not be tolerated on this Bored. Our Bored.

Thanks,

Vandal
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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#11 Post by Estonut » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:10 pm

Vandal wrote:This whole thing came about when I saw the name of a Bored challenge I created and hosted several times being re-used without my permission (aka, hijacked). I would have been fine with another BB hosting it, even Pastor Fireball, had that BB simply asked me. I would have requested that the simple parameters of the game (ten categories, ten questions, ten days) be adhered to so that the unique nature of the game remained intact.

That didn't happen. After I saw the rules and new parameters posted I insisted that he change the name because the game he described was not close to the original. He chose not to do the right thing and change the name.

It could have been called "Super Summer Slam" or "X" or "Diez" some generic name, but he chose TEN! But it's not TEN!

As a writer, protecting my work (ideas, completed manuscripts and titles) is paramount. I know being on a private message board means that this is not a legal issue (nobody is suing anyone for anything) but rather an ethical one:

I don't want my intellectual property used in this way.

When I wanted to take over Decades a few years back, I contacted Fanny and got her permission because she was the creator of that game. It was not public domain. If she said no, I wouldn't have hosted it. Plus, I didn't turn it into "Super Duper Decades" or some other lame variation. That would have been wrong. I chose to do the right thing.

I also asked Frank Tangredi's permission to use the term "Tangredi" and examples from a few of his games on another site (geocaching.com). He probably would've never known otherwise, but that's not what was important. I did what was what ethically right. I have also asked permission to use BBs as characters in some crappy promos.

So if you are considering playing the latest variation of TEN!, know this:

1) I did not and will not give my permission to the Pastor Fireball to use the title in this manner.

2) I will not not hold it against anyone who chooses to play. For what it's worth, it appears to be a well-thought out game with lots of nuance. It's just not TEN!. Not even close. You decide.

3) I will continue to host Bored challenges in the future. I have to create content, whether it's stories or games. I value them very much. If anyone is interested in hosting a challenge using one of my titles, just ask. We'll have a discussion and I'll likely give you my blessing.

4) Hijacking should not be tolerated on this Bored. Our Bored.

Thanks,

Vandal
I can attest that Vandal has asked me:
• To use me as a character in some crappy promos
• He even contacted me asking my permission to use something (elsewhere) that I had done related to LS, even though there was no way I'd ever have found out about it.

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#12 Post by franktangredi » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:13 pm

Vandal wrote:This whole thing came about when I saw the name of a Bored challenge I created and hosted several times being re-used without my permission (aka, hijacked). I would have been fine with another BB hosting it, even Pastor Fireball, had that BB simply asked me. I would have requested that the simple parameters of the game (ten categories, ten questions, ten days) be adhered to so that the unique nature of the game remained intact.

That didn't happen. After I saw the rules and new parameters posted I insisted that he change the name because the game he described was not close to the original. He chose not to do the right thing and change the name.

It could have been called "Super Summer Slam" or "X" or "Diez" some generic name, but he chose TEN! But it's not TEN!

As a writer, protecting my work (ideas, completed manuscripts and titles) is paramount. I know being on a private message board means that this is not a legal issue (nobody is suing anyone for anything) but rather an ethical one:

I don't want my intellectual property used in this way.

When I wanted to take over Decades a few years back, I contacted Fanny and got her permission because she was the creator of that game. It was not public domain. If she said no, I wouldn't have hosted it. Plus, I didn't turn it into "Super Duper Decades" or some other lame variation. That would have been wrong. I chose to do the right thing.

I also asked Frank Tangredi's permission to use the term "Tangredi" and examples from a few of his games on another site (geocaching.com). He probably would've never known otherwise, but that's not what was important. I did what was what ethically right. I have also asked permission to use BBs as characters in some crappy promos.

So if you are considering playing the latest variation of TEN!, know this:

1) I did not and will not give my permission to the Pastor Fireball to use the title in this manner.

2) I will not not hold it against anyone who chooses to play. For what it's worth, it appears to be a well-thought out game with lots of nuance. It's just not TEN!. Not even close. You decide.

3) I will continue to host Bored challenges in the future. I have to create content, whether it's stories or games. I value them very much. If anyone is interested in hosting a challenge using one of my titles, just ask. We'll have a discussion and I'll likely give you my blessing.

4) Hijacking should not be tolerated on this Bored. Our Bored.

Thanks,

Vandal
Thank you for explaining this so clearly. Now that I know the whole story, I do believe that this was a real breach of courtesy, and that your wishes should have been respected. I will also respect your wishes.

Purely as an FYI: I didn't come up with the term 'Tangredi' as it applies to my games. In fact, it was Fanny who first used that term!

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#13 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:13 pm

franktangredi wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
franktangredi wrote:
I wasn't aware of this thread until somebody pointed it out to me just now. I certainly am not offended by anyone using the format I created. That would just seem silly.

Should somebody borrow a title if asked not to? I guess not. But I personally think it's not a big enough deal to make a fuss about. No matter how abrasive the person involved is.
Titles are odd creatures in intellectual property law. It's pretty well established that you can't copyright a title. But I see this as more akin to a trademark issue, where the unauthorized use of the word misleadingly or falsely suggests approval or endorsement. The premise for that conclusion is that the original title (in this case, TEN!) is associated with its original creator (Vandal). --Bob
It sounds more like a breach of courtesy than a breach of ethics to me. (I'm closer to the line of legal infringement whenever I do one of my Family Feud surveys.)

The real question for me is, would people be standing so firm on this principle if it was anybody else involved?
I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case the answer is a clear yes. --Bob
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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#14 Post by littlebeast13 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:42 pm

franktangredi wrote:The real question for me is, would people be standing so firm on this principle if it was anybody else involved?
Most of the people who have now chosen to actively boycott the game are people who have participated in recent games from this same person... so yes, I think it's the principle of the matter that is driving this. Other than the old drive by trolls of the past who used to imp usernames and sometimes entire posts, nobody else has ever done anything like this because even most the posters on this Bored who I (and others) consider to be insufferable have some modicum of common courtesy.

And again, I point out the complete lack of response to this from the perpetrator of this theft. If he doesn't care enough to at least offer up his own explanation of why he is hijacking an established game and bastardizing it without the OK of its creator, why should anyone else care enough to worry about his hurt feelings if everyone boycotts his game?

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#15 Post by Vandal » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:53 am

franktangredi wrote: The real question for me is, would people be standing so firm on this principle if it was anybody else involved?
I have not had any issues with Pastor Fireball in the past, but I am aware that others have. He has been a participant in most, if not all, of my previous Bored challenges.

I don't engage in political discussions nor do I care about anyone's political affiliations. I treat everyone the same, even Patriots haters.

This could have been resolved with a single PM or email, or by responding to a previous post.
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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#16 Post by T_Bone0806 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:41 am

I have nothing against Pastor Fireball. I don't agree with some of his viewpoints, at least with the intensity of such viewpoints, but on a basic level, he has not done me ill on a one-to-one level. But I am not playing this game. It would've indeed been easy to fix...a simple "Sorry about that, didn't realize it was Bored protocol to clear using a game title/concept with the originator. Do you mind?" I recall asking Vandal if it was cool to run Bandstand and Prime Time games and he said it was OK and didn't even ask for royalties! Heck, as a newbie I think I even asked if it was OK to join in and PLAY Lyrically Speaking and 7 Clues, never mind hosting them! So I don't think we'd have all this hubbub if a simple reaching out was done.

It's too bad, because this bored sure could use more distractions from the topics that have resulted in battle lines being drawn and opinions turning into personal attacks, but I suppose this is a microcosm of our country and our world these days.

Anyway, since this matter is important to Vandal, it is important to me, because bottom line, Vandal is my friend.

Even though he hates the Yankees and I hate the Patriots.... :twisted:
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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#17 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:03 am

T_Bone0806 wrote:Even though he hates the Yankees and I hate the Patriots.... :twisted:
Just thought I might mention this tidbit in this morning's Nate Silver column:

#1 Best Professional Sports Team since 1980 according to ELO ratings: 2007 New England Patriots
#692 Best Professional Sports Team since 1980 according to ELO ratings: 2007 New York Giants

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/th ... 9-yankees/
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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#18 Post by mellytu74 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:10 am

T_Bone0806 wrote:I have nothing against Pastor Fireball. I don't agree with some of his viewpoints, at least with the intensity of such viewpoints, but on a basic level, he has not done me ill on a one-to-one level. But I am not playing this game. It would've indeed been easy to fix...a simple "Sorry about that, didn't realize it was Bored protocol to clear using a game title/concept with the originator. Do you mind?" I recall asking Vandal if it was cool to run Bandstand and Prime Time games and he said it was OK and didn't even ask for royalties! Heck, as a newbie I think I even asked if it was OK to join in and PLAY Lyrically Speaking and 7 Clues, never mind hosting them! So I don't think we'd have all this hubbub if a simple reaching out was done.

It's too bad, because this bored sure could use more distractions from the topics that have resulted in battle lines being drawn and opinions turning into personal attacks, but I suppose this is a microcosm of our country and our world these days.

Anyway, since this matter is important to Vandal, it is important to me, because bottom line, Vandal is my friend.

Even though he hates the Yankees and I hate the Patriots.... :twisted:
T-Bone has pretty well stated how I feel.

I have no gripes with Fireball (and, to the best of my knowledge, he has none with me).

There are topics where, while I might agree with the basic premise, I don't agree with the intensity with which he states it.

But that goes for other people as well. Not a unique situation.

JMJ, all he had to do was ask. Or suggest. Or something.

I mean, there have been brouhahas over things here before that were important to one person and not to another (I am thinking specifically of Eric Gregg and the Kansas Jayhawks -- two brouhahas in which I was personally involved - but I bet we could come up with a list :twisted: )

But I digress.

The whole thing just makes me sad.
Last edited by mellytu74 on Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#19 Post by mellytu74 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:18 am

PS ---I see sss coming up with calling the common problem-solving mechanism the "Tangredi" as an organic outgrowth.

As was the "Tangredi format" for the Q and A puzzles.

AND, as lb had pointed out, like many others, I have participated in previous Fireball puzzles. AND enjoyed them enormously. As I enjoyed Monday's version of this one.

I would have continued to participate in this one -- gladly -- had he just done the right thing.

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#20 Post by mrkelley23 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:51 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
T_Bone0806 wrote:Even though he hates the Yankees and I hate the Patriots.... :twisted:
Just thought I might mention this tidbit in this morning's Nate Silver column:

#1 Best Professional Sports Team since 1980 according to ELO ratings: 2007 New England Patriots
#692 Best Professional Sports Team since 1980 according to ELO ratings: 2007 New York Giants

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/th ... 9-yankees/
Why the H-E-double-hockey-sticks is Jeff Lynne's band rating sports teams?
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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#21 Post by mellytu74 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:59 am

mrkelley23 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
T_Bone0806 wrote:Even though he hates the Yankees and I hate the Patriots.... :twisted:
Just thought I might mention this tidbit in this morning's Nate Silver column:

#1 Best Professional Sports Team since 1980 according to ELO ratings: 2007 New England Patriots
#692 Best Professional Sports Team since 1980 according to ELO ratings: 2007 New York Giants

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/th ... 9-yankees/
Why the H-E-double-hockey-sticks is Jeff Lynne's band rating sports teams?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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T_Bone0806
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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#22 Post by T_Bone0806 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:13 am

mrkelley23 wrote: Why the H-E-double-hockey-sticks is Jeff Lynne's band rating sports teams?
Some evil woman sweet talked them into it using some strange magic that they can't get out of their heads.

Probably to draw business to a telephone line offering wagering.

Do Ya want me to go any further with this or have you groaned enough already?
"#$%&@*&"-Donald F. Duck

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#23 Post by mrkelley23 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:06 pm

T_Bone0806 wrote:
mrkelley23 wrote: Why the H-E-double-hockey-sticks is Jeff Lynne's band rating sports teams?
Some evil woman sweet talked them into it using some strange magic that they can't get out of their heads.

Probably to draw business to a telephone line offering wagering.

Do Ya want me to go any further with this or have you groaned enough already?
Oh, man. Don't bring me down like that. :lol:
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled. -- Richard Feynman

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#24 Post by K.P. » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:12 pm

Why can't the moderators step in and stop the game? Lock the threads, and tell Bielefeldt that he'll be suspended if he continues to violate Vandal's wishes? Vandal is the originator of the game, it seems to me he has that right.

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Re: WAIT A MINUTE.... re: Ten! and Intellectual property

#25 Post by jarnon » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:28 pm

K.P. wrote:Why can't the moderators step in and stop the game? Lock the threads, and tell Bielefeldt that he'll be suspended if he continues to violate Vandal's wishes? Vandal is the originator of the game, it seems to me he has that right.
Good old peer pressure is doing the job just fine.
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