The fate of the Universe will be decided today

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silverscreenselect
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Re: The fate of the Universe will be decided today

#51 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:37 pm

BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote: Flock, people who felt the same way you do didn't want Social Security or Medicare either, but those worked out pretty well.
Really? You think SS has worked out well? You probably think the government is giving you something when you get your tax refund.
Compared with the "retirement plans" most workers had in 1935, yes it's worked very well.

Even today, nearly half of American households have no retirement savings whatsoever. Even if those workers had received the extra 7% or so that was withheld for Social Security, they still wouldn't have any savings.
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Re: The fate of the Universe will be decided today

#52 Post by mrkelley23 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:44 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote: Flock, people who felt the same way you do didn't want Social Security or Medicare either, but those worked out pretty well.
Really? You think SS has worked out well? You probably think the government is giving you something when you get your tax refund.
Compared with the "retirement plans" most workers had in 1935, yes it's worked very well.

Even today, nearly half of American households have no retirement savings whatsoever. Even if those workers had received the extra 7% or so that was withheld for Social Security, they still wouldn't have any savings.
This is a very telling statement to me. Are you saying that people are too stupid to save for retirement unless the government forces them to do so?
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled. -- Richard Feynman

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Re: The fate of the Universe will be decided today

#53 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:08 pm

mrkelley23 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
Really? You think SS has worked out well? You probably think the government is giving you something when you get your tax refund.
Compared with the "retirement plans" most workers had in 1935, yes it's worked very well.

Even today, nearly half of American households have no retirement savings whatsoever. Even if those workers had received the extra 7% or so that was withheld for Social Security, they still wouldn't have any savings.
This is a very telling statement to me. Are you saying that people are too stupid to save for retirement unless the government forces them to do so?
I'm not sure what sss was saying. I'm saying that experience has taught us that before the advent of Social Security, seniors often lived in poverty. Now, not so much, and the income guaranteed by Social Security in a large number of those cases makes the difference between poverty and not-poverty.

It's not about stupidity. It's about the availability of suitable investment vehicles and the information (and time) necessary to intelligently evaluate them, particularly in an environment where all too many "advisors" are permitted by law to put their own interests ahead of their putative clients. (That's what the fight over imposing a fiduciary duty on investment advisors is about.) Lots of people, particularly those with lower incomes, simply don't have access to reliable advice.

It's true that they could figure things out on their own, as some of us undoubtedly have done. But many people don't have the time or habits of thought to do so (the stereotype, for instance, is that doctors are terrible with money) and unlike high-income people in that boat, they can't hire someone to help them out. And of course, many good investments require a minimum investment that can take a long time to accumulate. Social Security ameliorates many of those problems and experience has taught us that it works, which should be the test for any government program. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The fate of the Universe will be decided today

#54 Post by Beebs52 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:20 pm

Not a lot of people can live on SS alone. It is only a supplement that one has paid into, and even if you made really good money during your work years it's not huge. Good intentions with mediocre results.
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Re: The fate of the Universe will be decided today

#55 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:40 pm

Beebs52 wrote:Not a lot of people can live on SS alone. It is only a supplement that one has paid into, and even if you made really good money during your work years it's not huge. Good intentions with mediocre results.
It's not designed for people to live on it alone. But it really, really helps a lot of people with mediocre or poor savings.

Again, check out how many seniors used to live in poverty before the advent of Social Security. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The fate of the Universe will be decided today

#56 Post by Beebs52 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:58 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:Not a lot of people can live on SS alone. It is only a supplement that one has paid into, and even if you made really good money during your work years it's not huge. Good intentions with mediocre results.
It's not designed for people to live on it alone. But it really, really helps a lot of people with mediocre or poor savings.

Again, check out how many seniors used to live in poverty before the advent of Social Security. --Bob
I do understand that. It's too bad that more people can't understand the importance of saving, via 401ks or whatever, from an early age, so that they don't believe in relying on ss. At some point it will have to be phased out because of numbers of people using it. When we budgeted for retirement we didn't factor in ss or medicare in our figures. We used highest expenditure, taking from our investments, and are reaping benefits from paying into both for 40 plus years now because, hell yes.

It, ss,will have to get back to it's original purpose at some point, but that will involve an opt out for young peeps.
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Re: The fate of the Universe will be decided today

#57 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:19 am

Beebs52 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:Not a lot of people can live on SS alone. It is only a supplement that one has paid into, and even if you made really good money during your work years it's not huge. Good intentions with mediocre results.
It's not designed for people to live on it alone. But it really, really helps a lot of people with mediocre or poor savings.

Again, check out how many seniors used to live in poverty before the advent of Social Security. --Bob
I do understand that. It's too bad that more people can't understand the importance of saving, via 401ks or whatever, from an early age, so that they don't believe in relying on ss. At some point it will have to be phased out because of numbers of people using it. When we budgeted for retirement we didn't factor in ss or medicare in our figures. We used highest expenditure, taking from our investments, and are reaping benefits from paying into both for 40 plus years now because, hell yes.

It, ss,will have to get back to it's original purpose at some point, but that will involve an opt out for young peeps.
That's not my understanding of the numbers. I believe that relatively minor tweaks will be enough to get through the retirement of the Baby Boomers. For example, simply removing the cap on earnings subject to Social Security handles the problem, with the extra added benefit (from my perspective) of making the tax less regressive.

I also think that an opt-out for the young is a non-starter from a functional perspective. Social Security is a pay-as-you-go plan, so if future beneficiaries opt out, money won't be available to pay what current beneficiaries are owed right now. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The fate of the Universe will be decided today

#58 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:55 am

mrkelley23 wrote: This is a very telling statement to me. Are you saying that people are too stupid to save for retirement unless the government forces them to do so?
In some cases, too stupid. In a lot of other cases, it's very hard to pay current expenses when you're making under $10 an hour, let alone put a meaningful amount away for retirement.

The figures are frightening. According to the Economic Policy Institute, the median retirement savings (meaning half the families have more than this saved, in some cases a lot more, and some have less) for families aged 56 to 61 is $17,000.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that everyone in this country would have doubled his or her retirement savings with the extra money from social security. That would mean that half the households in this country would soon have to "retire" from dollar one on $34,000 total.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/07/how-much ... y-age.html

http://www.epi.org/publication/retireme ... ca/#charts
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