Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

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Spock
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Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#1 Post by Spock » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:50 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ene ... df6fd99368

The Trump Administration just made farmers of all political stripes very happy. They are moving forward on repealing the reviled (in Agricultural Circles) WOTUS rule-(Waters of the United States.)

This is probably the number 1 thing that farmers were hoping for in a Trump Administration.

It had dominated agricultural media for the last couple years as few other things have done.

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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#2 Post by silverscreenselect » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:34 pm

Spock wrote: The Trump Administration just made farmers of all political stripes very happy.
I wonder how people who are interested in having clean drinking water feel about this.
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#3 Post by jarnon » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:40 pm

What does earendel think about this rule?
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#4 Post by Jeemie » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:12 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Spock wrote: The Trump Administration just made farmers of all political stripes very happy.
I wonder how people who are interested in having clean drinking water feel about this.
No...this is one rule that was a huge unnecessary federal overreach.

This was the one where Obama tried to claim federal juridstiction over any body of water down to a puddle or the runoff from my hose when I washed my car. (Ok...an exaggeration, but not much of one).
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#5 Post by littleblueneon » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:35 am

Jeemie wrote:This was the one where Obama tried to claim federal juridstiction over any body of water down to a puddle or the runoff from my hose when I washed my car.

What a waste of perfectly good water....
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#6 Post by BackInTex » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:53 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Spock wrote: The Trump Administration just made farmers of all political stripes very happy.
I wonder how people who are interested in having clean drinking water feel about this.
Why do you wonder? Are you not interested in having clean drinking water?

I don't wonder. I am interested in having clean drinking water. And I approve of this repeal.
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#7 Post by silverscreenselect » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:18 am

BackInTex wrote: I don't wonder. I am interested in having clean drinking water. And I approve of this repeal.
Not surprisingly, actual scientists do not agree with you, Spock, and Trump. Of course, you might be among the 2/3 of Americans not affected by the repeal of this regulation.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... er-supply/
James Salzman, a professor of environmental law at the University of California, Los Angeles, says Trump’s order suggests the future rule will likely lift controls on these smaller “ephemeral and intermittent” streams—those that typically flow only when it rains, and those with segments that only flow certain times of the year, such as when snow melts. Even though ephemeral and intermittent streams do not run continuously—which some argue is why they do not qualify for protection—scientists have found they are still key to water quality of the larger bodies in which they flow. “These streams are connected” to waters downstream, says Ken Reckhow, professor emeritus of water resources at Duke University—and they can carry pollutants to places where communities may draw their drinking water.
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#8 Post by Bob Juch » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:51 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote: I don't wonder. I am interested in having clean drinking water. And I approve of this repeal.
Not surprisingly, actual scientists do not agree with you, Spock, and Trump. Of course, you might be among the 2/3 of Americans not affected by the repeal of this regulation.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... er-supply/
James Salzman, a professor of environmental law at the University of California, Los Angeles, says Trump’s order suggests the future rule will likely lift controls on these smaller “ephemeral and intermittent” streams—those that typically flow only when it rains, and those with segments that only flow certain times of the year, such as when snow melts. Even though ephemeral and intermittent streams do not run continuously—which some argue is why they do not qualify for protection—scientists have found they are still key to water quality of the larger bodies in which they flow. “These streams are connected” to waters downstream, says Ken Reckhow, professor emeritus of water resources at Duke University—and they can carry pollutants to places where communities may draw their drinking water.
Every stream here is an “ephemeral and intermittent” stream. All of our water comes from them.
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#9 Post by Appa23 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:23 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Spock wrote: The Trump Administration just made farmers of all political stripes very happy.
I wonder how people who are interested in having clean drinking water feel about this.
Probably feel that they are glad that they actually research things before they post on the internet , because they learned that their state actually has environmental agencies that handle things outside of federal jurisdiction.

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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#10 Post by silverscreenselect » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:42 pm

Appa23 wrote: Probably feel that they are glad that they actually research things before they post on the internet , because they learned that their state actually has environmental agencies that handle things outside of federal jurisdiction.
But the whole point of this regulation is that these things are in federal jurisdiction, and the water cleanliness is something that states, even if they were so inclined (which a number of them aren't due to lack of funding or a lack fo desire to take on business interests), can't always handle because a lot of pollution occurs before the water gets to that state.

And, as the article I cited indicated, a lot of the problem occurs in the waterways that Trump has just turned his back on.
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#11 Post by earendel » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:47 am

jarnon wrote:What does earendel think about this rule?
I have no opinion.
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#12 Post by Spock » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:26 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Appa23 wrote: Probably feel that they are glad that they actually research things before they post on the internet , because they learned that their state actually has environmental agencies that handle things outside of federal jurisdiction.
But the whole point of this regulation is that these things are in federal jurisdiction, and the water cleanliness is something that states, even if they were so inclined (which a number of them aren't due to lack of funding or a lack fo desire to take on business interests), can't always handle because a lot of pollution occurs before the water gets to that state.

And, as the article I cited indicated, a lot of the problem occurs in the waterways that Trump has just turned his back on.
Spoken by the Atlanta liberal who has never met a regulation that he doesn't like. It is likely that the blowback against the Obama rule is one reason that Trump's margins were goosed in many rural areas.

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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#13 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:25 pm

Spock wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
Appa23 wrote: Probably feel that they are glad that they actually research things before they post on the internet , because they learned that their state actually has environmental agencies that handle things outside of federal jurisdiction.
But the whole point of this regulation is that these things are in federal jurisdiction, and the water cleanliness is something that states, even if they were so inclined (which a number of them aren't due to lack of funding or a lack fo desire to take on business interests), can't always handle because a lot of pollution occurs before the water gets to that state.

And, as the article I cited indicated, a lot of the problem occurs in the waterways that Trump has just turned his back on.
Spoken by the Atlanta liberal who has never met a regulation that he doesn't like. It is likely that the blowback against the Obama rule is one reason that Trump's margins were goosed in many rural areas.
That may be. But that doesn't mean the regulation was unnecessary or that its expense was unwarranted. It may well mean that rural voters were perfectly willing to externalize the cost of polluting intermittent waterways because (by definition of "externalize") someone else would end up paying the price.

How much pollution does enter other waterways and water supplies from these intermittent waterways? How much does it cost to prevent or ameliorate that pollution at the source? If not prevented or ameliorated, what's the cost of that pollution to others? I'm guessing that these answers can be found in the paperwork supporting the regulation in the first place. I'm fairly confident that competing answers supported by sound science cannot be found in the present-day EPA. --Bob
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#14 Post by Spock » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:41 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Spock wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
But the whole point of this regulation is that these things are in federal jurisdiction, and the water cleanliness is something that states, even if they were so inclined (which a number of them aren't due to lack of funding or a lack fo desire to take on business interests), can't always handle because a lot of pollution occurs before the water gets to that state.

And, as the article I cited indicated, a lot of the problem occurs in the waterways that Trump has just turned his back on.
Spoken by the Atlanta liberal who has never met a regulation that he doesn't like. It is likely that the blowback against the Obama rule is one reason that Trump's margins were goosed in many rural areas.
That may be. But that doesn't mean the regulation was unnecessary or that its expense was unwarranted. It may well mean that rural voters were perfectly willing to externalize the cost of polluting intermittent waterways because (by definition of "externalize") someone else would end up paying the price.

How much pollution does enter other waterways and water supplies from these intermittent waterways? How much does it cost to prevent or ameliorate that pollution at the source? If not prevented or ameliorated, what's the cost of that pollution to others? I'm guessing that these answers can be found in the paperwork supporting the regulation in the first place. I'm fairly confident that competing answers supported by sound science cannot be found in the present-day EPA. --Bob
If the waters are so dirty and the rule was so necessary, why did the Obama team wait until 2015 (or so) to do the rule? Why not 5 years earlier?

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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#15 Post by Spock » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:42 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Spock wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
But the whole point of this regulation is that these things are in federal jurisdiction, and the water cleanliness is something that states, even if they were so inclined (which a number of them aren't due to lack of funding or a lack fo desire to take on business interests), can't always handle because a lot of pollution occurs before the water gets to that state.

And, as the article I cited indicated, a lot of the problem occurs in the waterways that Trump has just turned his back on.
Spoken by the Atlanta liberal who has never met a regulation that he doesn't like. It is likely that the blowback against the Obama rule is one reason that Trump's margins were goosed in many rural areas.
That may be. But that doesn't mean the regulation was unnecessary or that its expense was unwarranted. It may well mean that rural voters were perfectly willing to externalize the cost of polluting intermittent waterways because (by definition of "externalize") someone else would end up paying the price.

How much pollution does enter other waterways and water supplies from these intermittent waterways? How much does it cost to prevent or ameliorate that pollution at the source? If not prevented or ameliorated, what's the cost of that pollution to others? I'm guessing that these answers can be found in the paperwork supporting the regulation in the first place. I'm fairly confident that competing answers supported by sound science cannot be found in the present-day EPA. --Bob
Chuckling a little bit at you going on about Externalities. One of Victor Davis Hanson's main themes is about how the politics of coastal California (of which you are a stereotypical example) externalizes all the nasty bits required to sustain a modern coastal California lifestyle.

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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#16 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:42 pm

Spock wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Spock wrote:
Spoken by the Atlanta liberal who has never met a regulation that he doesn't like. It is likely that the blowback against the Obama rule is one reason that Trump's margins were goosed in many rural areas.
That may be. But that doesn't mean the regulation was unnecessary or that its expense was unwarranted. It may well mean that rural voters were perfectly willing to externalize the cost of polluting intermittent waterways because (by definition of "externalize") someone else would end up paying the price.

How much pollution does enter other waterways and water supplies from these intermittent waterways? How much does it cost to prevent or ameliorate that pollution at the source? If not prevented or ameliorated, what's the cost of that pollution to others? I'm guessing that these answers can be found in the paperwork supporting the regulation in the first place. I'm fairly confident that competing answers supported by sound science cannot be found in the present-day EPA. --Bob
If the waters are so dirty and the rule was so necessary, why did the Obama team wait until 2015 (or so) to do the rule? Why not 5 years earlier?
Because collecting good scientific information takes time, as does enacting regulations. There's also a legal issue that has nothing to do with the science -- whether the law permits federal regulation of intermittent waterways no matter how good the cause. Analyzing that issue also takes time.

None of this is an answer to my question. What does the science say? --Bob
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#17 Post by SportsFan68 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:34 pm

I did not hate this regulation.
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#18 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:17 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Spock wrote: The Trump Administration just made farmers of all political stripes very happy.
I wonder how people who are interested in having clean drinking water feel about this.
Well, I represent the large group of people who desire dirty, slimy and poisonous drinking water with several lethal chemicals mixed in.

We want dirty air and contaminated land as well.

We have elected republicans to advance our cause, because we all know they want dirty water, air and earth, too. They also don't care about children or old folks, they hate people of color and gay people and are threatened by strong women. Especially Hillary.

We have rights, too!
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#19 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:41 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote:

Well, I represent the large group of people who desire dirty, slimy and poisonous drinking water with several lethal chemicals mixed in.
That water you like to drink just might explain your thought processes.
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Re: Trump Repealing a Hated Obama Regulation

#20 Post by jarnon » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:44 pm

Sounds like Western farmers are getting what they want.

EPA moves toward rewriting Obama water rule

Are farmers happy about this too?

Senate agriculture panel passes farm bill with hemp legalization

Most of the press coverage here has been about food stamps, but Sen. Klobuchar has called the bill great for farmers in her state. Most farm state Senators agree; the agriculture committee approved it 20-1.
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