Prayer for Senator McCain

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BackInTex
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#51 Post by BackInTex » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:34 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote: Well, according to the Patriot Act:

Standing in the middle of a freeway is "dangerous to human life"
Standing in the middle of a freeway is a violation of the criminal laws of all states

Most protesters standing in the middle of a freeway are doing so to coerce a civilian population or influence the policy of a government
Most US based protesters standing in the middle of a freeway do so on freeways within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States

4 of 4

Yet I've never seen anyone, including Trump, Cruz, Sessions, SSS, or Bob#s call those protests terrorism. What am I missing?
You miss the elements of coercion and intimidation.

Coercion: "the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats."
Intimidation: "the action of intimidating someone."
Intimidate: "frighten or overawe (someone), especially in order to make them do what one wants"
It is "or", and I did not. Not if you haven't in the Charlottesville case. Also, I will say the appearance of intention of coercion is clearer in the case of freeway protesters than a in this case. Most of the protesters have signs explaining their intent. Also, if "No Justice No Peace" is not a form of intimidation (or threat) in your mind, you are without reason.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#52 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:08 pm

I assume these are the freeway protestors that BiT is talking about:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/P ... o-13743978

I don't see much coercion or intimidation here. I guess, however, by BiT's standards, that the blacks who sat down at segregated lunch counters in the 1960's were coercing or intimidating the white patrons.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#53 Post by Bob Juch » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:16 pm

BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote: The guy ran over the people as a result of their actions, that day, against him and his group, not because of who they are or his thoughts or beliefs.

"Who they are" were people whose ideology differed from his own and were protesting it. At one point, he was in the rally, and he left, got into his car, and drove the middle of it. It was only the presence of other cars in front of his that prevented the damage and injury from being much worse.
Still not terrorism. I agree with the 2nd degree murder charge. Sounds like you do too.
General McMaster disagrees with you.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#54 Post by BackInTex » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:26 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:I assume these are the freeway protestors that BiT is talking about:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/P ... o-13743978

I don't see much coercion or intimidation here. I guess, however, by BiT's standards, that the blacks who sat down at segregated lunch counters in the 1960's were coercing or intimidating the white patrons.
Not my standards, your definition.

I'm not the one calling any of this terrorism. You are, and you provided someone else's definition as support. I'm just demonstrating your hypocrisy in applying that definition.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#55 Post by Bob Juch » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:10 pm

BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:I assume these are the freeway protestors that BiT is talking about:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/P ... o-13743978

I don't see much coercion or intimidation here. I guess, however, by BiT's standards, that the blacks who sat down at segregated lunch counters in the 1960's were coercing or intimidating the white patrons.
Not my standards, your definition.

I'm not the one calling any of this terrorism. You are, and you provided someone else's definition as support. I'm just demonstrating your hypocrisy in applying that definition.
The DoJ is investigating terrorism charges.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#56 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:20 pm

BackInTex wrote:
I'm not the one calling any of this terrorism. You are, and you provided someone else's definition as support. I'm just demonstrating your hypocrisy in applying that definition.
You only "find" hypocrisy by eliminating the coercion and intimidation factor from the definition of terrorism.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#57 Post by BackInTex » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:36 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
I'm not the one calling any of this terrorism. You are, and you provided someone else's definition as support. I'm just demonstrating your hypocrisy in applying that definition.
You only "find" hypocrisy by eliminating the coercion and intimidation factor from the definition of terrorism.
You missed the element of intent.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#58 Post by BackInTex » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:41 pm

Bob Juch wrote:General McMaster disagrees with you.
He's making up his own definition.
McMaster said “anytime that you commit an attack against people to incite fear, it is terrorism.”
That doesn't make the "terrorism" test as defined by SSS's quote of the law.

McMaster said it was "a criminal act against fellow Americans. A criminal act that may have been motivated — and we'll see what's turned up in this investigation — by this hatred and bigotry, which I mentioned we have to extinguish in our nation."
He admits he doesn't know the motivation, therefore he can't attest to the intentions of the perp.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#59 Post by Bob78164 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:57 pm

BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
I'm not the one calling any of this terrorism. You are, and you provided someone else's definition as support. I'm just demonstrating your hypocrisy in applying that definition.
You only "find" hypocrisy by eliminating the coercion and intimidation factor from the definition of terrorism.
You missed the element of intent.
I'm pretty sure he didn't plow into that crowd because he was frustrated by the lack of a parking spot. He plowed into them because he didn't like the political views they were promoting. What more do you need?

As for "No Justice, No Peace," context means a lot. "Peace," in this context, is the same sort of thing I have repeatedly said in response to flock's past demands that I stop airing my contempt for Donny. Not gonna happen. I'll continue to speak out. I don't think those signs can reasonably be interpreted as threats of violence. At most, they're threats to continue engaging in public demonstrations and perhaps even civil disobedience. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#60 Post by BackInTex » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:29 pm

Bob78164 wrote:He plowed into them because he didn't like the political views they were promoting. What more do you need?
Nothing. You have just proven my point. It was not terrorism. There was no intent to coerce or intimidate. Just to kill and maim, to get revenge.

Bob78164 wrote:As for "No Justice, No Peace," context means a lot. .... I don't think those signs can reasonably be interpreted as threats of violence. At most, they're threats to continue engaging in public demonstrations and perhaps even civil disobedience. --Bob
Not when they are accompanied by chants of "Pigs in a blanket. Fry 'em like bacon." Or when the signs are accompanied or followed up by riots, such as Ferguson.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#61 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:09 pm

I honestly don't see the point in labeling a murder or murders as 'terrorism' or 'hate crimes' AFTER it occurs. The act is the same whatever the motivation and should be treated as such for whomever did it and whatever the motivation.
What we need to do is find a way to prevent terrorist murders BEFORE they happen, without taking away the rights of people who have no intention of committing such acts. How do we do that? I really don't know. But the people who insist that old ladies and children be frisked at airports in order for it to be 'fair' need to give some ground so that all of us can both be protected and retain our freedoms.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#62 Post by elwoodblues » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:03 pm

Do we have to keep splitting hairs over whether this dipshit is a terrorist? Can we just call him a dipshit and be done with it?

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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#63 Post by Beebs52 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:13 pm

elwoodblues wrote:Do we have to keep splitting hairs over whether this dipshit is a terrorist? Can we just call him a dipshit and be done with it?
Seriously. The "who's the best social justice warrior" effort is getting stupidly tiresome.
Well, then

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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#64 Post by BackInTex » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:46 pm

elwoodblues wrote:Do we have to keep splitting hairs over whether this dipshit is a terrorist? Can we just call him a dipshit and be done with it?
I feel it important. I don't want the term to be overused to where it is just another crime. I especially don't want it used to increase the perceived evilness just because someone doesn't like the politics of the perpetrator. Not all assault is terrorism and not all terrorism is assault.

Timothy McVeigh - terrorist
Eric Rudolph - terrorist
Ted Kaczynski - terrorist
Seamus McKenna - terroist

John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo - not terrorists, just psychos.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#65 Post by Bob78164 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:05 pm

BackInTex wrote:
elwoodblues wrote:Do we have to keep splitting hairs over whether this dipshit is a terrorist? Can we just call him a dipshit and be done with it?
I feel it important. I don't want the term to be overused to where it is just another crime. I especially don't want it used to increase the perceived evilness just because someone doesn't like the politics of the perpetrator. Not all assault is terrorism and not all terrorism is assault.

Timothy McVeigh - terrorist
Eric Rudolph - terrorist
Ted Kaczynski - terrorist
Seamus McKenna - terroist

John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo - not terrorists, just psychos.
I agree with your thoughts regarding the importance of using the correct word. I certainly agree with your classification of McVeigh, Muhammad, and Malvo. I think I agree about Rudolph. Not so sure about Kaczynski, but I think what pushes me to agree with you is the manifesto that was finally used to catch him. Never heard of McKenna.

Still think the Charlottesville murderer is much more akin to the first group than to the latter group. --Bob
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#66 Post by Vandal » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:06 pm

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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#67 Post by Bob Juch » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:29 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:General McMaster disagrees with you.
He's making up his own definition.
McMaster said “anytime that you commit an attack against people to incite fear, it is terrorism.”
That doesn't make the "terrorism" test as defined by SSS's quote of the law.

McMaster said it was "a criminal act against fellow Americans. A criminal act that may have been motivated — and we'll see what's turned up in this investigation — by this hatred and bigotry, which I mentioned we have to extinguish in our nation."
He admits he doesn't know the motivation, therefore he can't attest to the intentions of the perp.
What about Jerry Drake Varnell?
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#68 Post by Estonut » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:38 am

Bob Juch wrote:What about Jerry Drake Varnell?
Isn't that your nephew who borrowed money for fertilizer?
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#69 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:01 am

‘Daily Stormer’ website sending Nazis to harass funeral of woman allegedly killed by white supremacist in Charlottesville

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/daily-s ... ttesville/
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#70 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:22 pm

Trump's got a future in standup comedy. From the USA Today:
President Trump defended his initial response to the Charlottesville violence on Monday, insisting that he couldn't have made his condemnation of white supremacists and other hate groups earlier "because I didn't know all the facts. I wanted to make sure, unlike most politicians, that what I said was correct," Trump said. "There was no way of making a correct statement that early. I had to see the facts. Unlike a lot of reporters – I didn't know David Duke was there. I wanted to see the facts."
So, I guess this means no more half-cocked, shoot-from-the-hip, uninformed tweets.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 568752001/
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#71 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:38 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:Trump's got a future in standup comedy. From the USA Today:
President Trump defended his initial response to the Charlottesville violence on Monday, insisting that he couldn't have made his condemnation of white supremacists and other hate groups earlier "because I didn't know all the facts. I wanted to make sure, unlike most politicians, that what I said was correct," Trump said. "There was no way of making a correct statement that early. I had to see the facts. Unlike a lot of reporters – I didn't know David Duke was there. I wanted to see the facts."
So, I guess this means no more half-cocked, shoot-from-the-hip, uninformed tweets.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 568752001/
You would think the USA Today would know the difference between 'than' and 'then'.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#72 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:36 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:Trump's got a future in standup comedy. From the USA Today:
President Trump defended his initial response to the Charlottesville violence on Monday, insisting that he couldn't have made his condemnation of white supremacists and other hate groups earlier "because I didn't know all the facts. I wanted to make sure, unlike most politicians, that what I said was correct," Trump said. "There was no way of making a correct statement that early. I had to see the facts. Unlike a lot of reporters – I didn't know David Duke was there. I wanted to see the facts."
So, I guess this means no more half-cocked, shoot-from-the-hip, uninformed tweets.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 568752001/
That's not all he said:
"Not all of those people were neo-Nazis. Believe me."

“What about the alt-left that came charging at the—as you say, the alt-right—do they have any semblance of guilt?”

”You had a group—you had a group on the other side that came charging in without a permit, and they were very, very violent.”

”Neo-nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. But you had a lot of people in that group who were there to innocently protest, and very legally protest. I don't know if you know. They had a permit. The other group didn't have a permit … there are two sides to a story.”
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#73 Post by plasticene » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:16 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
“What about the alt-left that came charging at the—as you say, the alt-right—do they have any semblance of guilt?”
You left out the part that immediately preceded this!
Okay what about the alt-left that came charging at us -- excuse me -- what about the alt-left that came charging at the—as you say, the alt-right—do they have any semblance of guilt?
:shock:

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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#74 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:45 pm

plasticene wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
“What about the alt-left that came charging at the—as you say, the alt-right—do they have any semblance of guilt?”
You left out the part that immediately preceded this!
Okay what about the alt-left that came charging at us -- excuse me -- what about the alt-left that came charging at the—as you say, the alt-right—do they have any semblance of guilt?
:shock:
Mr. Trump, your Freudian slip is showing.
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Re: Prayer for Senator McCain

#75 Post by Estonut » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:20 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
plasticene wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
You left out the part that immediately preceded this!
Okay what about the alt-left that came charging at us -- excuse me -- what about the alt-left that came charging at the—as you say, the alt-right—do they have any semblance of guilt?
:shock:
Mr. Trump, your Freudian slip is showing.
That interpretation has since been walked back. The transcript now says [indiscernable] instead of "us." When I watch and listen to the video on this page (13:53), it looks (reading his lips) and sounds like he said "'em," not "us." One's lips do not close when saying "us."

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/1 ... ipt-241662
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