SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

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SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#1 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:16 am

Mrs. SSS and I went to see Dunkirk this weekend, and, simply put, I thought it was the best movie I've seen this year. Christopher Nolan really gives the audience the feel of what it must have been like on the beach, and the last half hour or so is incredibly suspenseful. But there's been a lot of controversy over two points.

First, the editing might be a bit confusing to some people because the film uses three different timelines. One storyline follows one young soldier from the time of his arrival on the beach onward. That takes about a week (he's on three different ships that wind up sinking). A second timeline follows a single private pleasure craft that Mark Rylance and his son take from England to the beach, picking up survivors along the way. That timeline takes one day. The third timeline follows Tom Hardy and a couple of other RAF pilots as they fly into combat over the beach trying to protect the troops from German aircraft. That timeline takes an hour or so. But, the film intercuts between each timeline, so that a scene from the beach could be followed by one in the air and then one on the boat. As a result, the audience might see the same action from different points of view at two or three different times in the film (one dogfight is seen from the boat about 15 minutes after you see it from the air).

Nolan uses titles to tell the audience just what he's doing ("The Mole (the name of the beach) - 1 week" and so forth), but it obviously didn't register with some people who got confused. They should have gotten the idea when a nighttime scene on the beach was followed by a daytime scene in the air followed by a nighttime scene a few minutes later on the beach again. Of course, Nolan was responsible for films like Memento and Interstellar, so he's used to playing games with time and location perspectives. In this case, I didn't think the shifting timelines was a mere gimmick but, rather, an incredibly effective way to keep the stories going and build tension until the three storylines finally intersect.

Another controversy arose, not out of the film per se but from a rather snotty comment in the USA Today review. The reviewer gave the film 3.5 stars but noted that the cast was almost all white and all male, which he said might offend the PC crowd. Ironically, once I heard that that, I paid attention and there were a couple of nurses on the hospital ships trying to evacuate the troops. In addition, in an early scene, the British won't allow French troops on their ship, and there were a couple of black soldiers among the French troops shown standing in line. I don't know of anyone who would criticize this movie about not adding more women or non-whites at a time when the British army had very few of either, but this was just some idiot reviewer trying to make a point in a context where it was totally extraneous (and incorrect to boot).
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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#2 Post by jarnon » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:37 am

Thanks for the review, SSS! I've added Dunkirk to my Netflix queue.

I'm going to throw in a sightseeing recommendation. In June 2010, we took a Scandinavian cruise that ended in Dover. An English couple suggested we visit Dover Castle. I thought it would be just another medieval castle, but I found out it was a military base from Roman times till the 1950s, when it became a museum. Even more interesting than the castle itself were the tunnels dug into the white cliffs. That week was the 70th anniversary of Dunkirk and the 66th of D-Day. The British military used the tunnels during both.
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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#3 Post by MarleysGh0st » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:28 pm

I saw Dunkirk, yesterday, and I second your recommendation for best film of the year (although I have to admit that I've seen a few less than you have, SSS). I was confused about the "one week", "one day", and "one hour" captions at the beginning of the movie, too. I figured out that those were the time periods each of the characters spent in Dunkirk, but it didn't quite occur to me that the timelines were different so that all those times were actually being portrayed in the music.

The movie is told from the experiences of these characters; there's no omniscient narrator explaining everything going on at the strategic level. The buddy I went to see this with complained that there wasn't a scene showing the scope of the effort with all of the thousands of boats involved in the evacuation, but I thought the film got that point across well enough from these more personal views.

One more thing of note: the background music. It's ominous and pounding, building to what you'd think would be an imminent crescendo--but it goes on, and on, and on...

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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#4 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:52 pm

MarleysGh0st wrote: there's no omniscient narrator explaining everything going on at the strategic level.
Kenneth Branagh's character serves the narrator function. Several of his speeches are essentially information dumps to explain what's happening.
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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#5 Post by Spock » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:52 am

Went to the movie last night also.

There are 2 problems I had with the film

1) Given the lack of historical knowledge in the general public, it needed a 30-second early in the film. ie "As the Germans made their way across France and Belgium, they trapped 400,000 British and French troops-blah, blah, blah."

Kenneth Branagh's character was really, really hard to hear and understand, especially if you have no historical base of knowledge.

2) For Pete's sake, they were fighting the Germans, not "The Enemy." The repeated references to "The Enemy" early in the film also served to remove to remove it from the historical timeline. I found myself thinking of this as a campaign in the recent Tom Cruise movie where he was fighting aliens in France (Good movie, BTW).

Later in the film, they referred more to the "Germans." However, one early instance of "The Enemy" really grated on me and almost ruined the film. I forget which characters (maybe the pilots) were referring to something that their side was not doing or was not able to do and said "The Enemy might have something to do with that".

I think "Jerry might have something to do with that" would be more accurate and sounded better out of their mouths. However, if you never tell anybody you are fighting the Germans, I guess "Jerry" would confuse the hell out of everybody.

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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#6 Post by Spock » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:30 am

Spock wrote:Went to the movie last night also.

There are 2 problems I had with the film

1) Given the lack of historical knowledge in the general public, it needed a 30-second early in the film. ie "As the Germans made their way across France and Belgium, they trapped 400,000 British and French troops-blah, blah, blah."

Kenneth Branagh's character was really, really hard to hear and understand, especially if you have no historical base of knowledge.

2) For Pete's sake, they were fighting the Germans, not "The Enemy." The repeated references to "The Enemy" early in the film also served to remove to remove it from the historical timeline. I found myself thinking of this as a campaign in the recent Tom Cruise movie where he was fighting aliens in France (Good movie, BTW).

Later in the film, they referred more to the "Germans." However, one early instance of "The Enemy" really grated on me and almost ruined the film. I forget which characters (maybe the pilots) were referring to something that their side was not doing or was not able to do and said "The Enemy might have something to do with that".

I think "Jerry might have something to do with that" would be more accurate and sounded better out of their mouths. However, if you never tell anybody you are fighting the Germans, I guess "Jerry" would confuse the hell out of everybody.
Thinking about the movie more and, I think, my feelings about disliking the film came very early. Yes, there were a few words of background on the screen, I forget the exact wording, but it ended with something like-"The Enemy surrounded them."

2 thoughts instantly went through my mind.
1) Oh, I see we are going that route-nameless, faceless "The Enemy" crap. More fool me, why would I have expected anything else from Nolan?

2) What is this? A campaign in the Ted Cruise "Aliens in France" movie? Once that thought was in there-it was there for the duration.

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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#7 Post by Jeemie » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:44 am

Spock wrote:
Spock wrote:Went to the movie last night also.

There are 2 problems I had with the film

1) Given the lack of historical knowledge in the general public, it needed a 30-second early in the film. ie "As the Germans made their way across France and Belgium, they trapped 400,000 British and French troops-blah, blah, blah."

Kenneth Branagh's character was really, really hard to hear and understand, especially if you have no historical base of knowledge.

2) For Pete's sake, they were fighting the Germans, not "The Enemy." The repeated references to "The Enemy" early in the film also served to remove to remove it from the historical timeline. I found myself thinking of this as a campaign in the recent Tom Cruise movie where he was fighting aliens in France (Good movie, BTW).

Later in the film, they referred more to the "Germans." However, one early instance of "The Enemy" really grated on me and almost ruined the film. I forget which characters (maybe the pilots) were referring to something that their side was not doing or was not able to do and said "The Enemy might have something to do with that".

I think "Jerry might have something to do with that" would be more accurate and sounded better out of their mouths. However, if you never tell anybody you are fighting the Germans, I guess "Jerry" would confuse the hell out of everybody.
Thinking about the movie more and, I think, my feelings about disliking the film came very early. Yes, there were a few words of background on the screen, I forget the exact wording, but it ended with something like-"The Enemy surrounded them."

2 thoughts instantly went through my mind.
1) Oh, I see we are going that route-nameless, faceless "The Enemy" crap. More fool me, why would I have expected anything else from Nolan?

2) What is this? A campaign in the Ted Cruise "Aliens in France" movie? Once that thought was in there-it was there for the duration.
It bothered you so much, you had to repeat yourself?

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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#8 Post by Spock » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:55 am

Jeemie wrote:
Spock wrote:
Spock wrote:Went to the movie last night also.

There are 2 problems I had with the film

1) Given the lack of historical knowledge in the general public, it needed a 30-second early in the film. ie "As the Germans made their way across France and Belgium, they trapped 400,000 British and French troops-blah, blah, blah."

Kenneth Branagh's character was really, really hard to hear and understand, especially if you have no historical base of knowledge.

2) For Pete's sake, they were fighting the Germans, not "The Enemy." The repeated references to "The Enemy" early in the film also served to remove to remove it from the historical timeline. I found myself thinking of this as a campaign in the recent Tom Cruise movie where he was fighting aliens in France (Good movie, BTW).

Later in the film, they referred more to the "Germans." However, one early instance of "The Enemy" really grated on me and almost ruined the film. I forget which characters (maybe the pilots) were referring to something that their side was not doing or was not able to do and said "The Enemy might have something to do with that".

I think "Jerry might have something to do with that" would be more accurate and sounded better out of their mouths. However, if you never tell anybody you are fighting the Germans, I guess "Jerry" would confuse the hell out of everybody.
Thinking about the movie more and, I think, my feelings about disliking the film came very early. Yes, there were a few words of background on the screen, I forget the exact wording, but it ended with something like-"The Enemy surrounded them."

2 thoughts instantly went through my mind.
1) Oh, I see we are going that route-nameless, faceless "The Enemy" crap. More fool me, why would I have expected anything else from Nolan?

2) What is this? A campaign in the Ted Cruise "Aliens in France" movie? Once that thought was in there-it was there for the duration.
It bothered you so much, you had to repeat yourself?

That's fascinating...
Not sure that I repeated myself. I thought I was fleshing out my first post.

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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#9 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:08 pm

Spock wrote: 1) Oh, I see we are going that route-nameless, faceless "The Enemy" crap.
I actually thought the faceless part of your description was one of Nolan's best touches. The German troops aren't seen at all until the last minute of the movie. In the first scene, a group of retreating British troops are cut down by enemy fire as they run for the beach, with only one survivor, the same soldier (played by a relatively unknown young actor named Fionn Whitehead making his film debut) the movie follows throughout his ordeal. The fact that he (and we) couldn't see who was shooting at him or how many they were made the scene a lot more frightening (as I'm sure it would be in real life, since people getting shot at don't have the benefit of camera closeups on extras dressed in German uniforms hiding in the bushes). There's a later scene in which unknown gunmen take shots at a handful of soldiers in hiding that's even more suspenseful.

As in Jaws, not seeing something and having to imagine it is a lot more unsettling than actually seeing it.
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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#10 Post by Spock » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:27 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Spock wrote: 1) Oh, I see we are going that route-nameless, faceless "The Enemy" crap.
I actually thought the faceless part of your description was one of Nolan's best touches. The German troops aren't seen at all until the last minute of the movie. In the first scene, a group of retreating British troops are cut down by enemy fire as they run for the beach, with only one survivor, the same soldier (played by a relatively unknown young actor named Fionn Whitehead making his film debut) the movie follows throughout his ordeal. The fact that he (and we) couldn't see who was shooting at him or how many they were made the scene a lot more frightening (as I'm sure it would be in real life, since people getting shot at don't have the benefit of camera closeups on extras dressed in German uniforms hiding in the bushes). There's a later scene in which unknown gunmen take shots at a handful of soldiers in hiding that's even more suspenseful.

As in Jaws, not seeing something and having to imagine it is a lot more unsettling than actually seeing it.
I totally get why he did it and it works artistically and so forth. However, can you pinpoint the moment in the film where you can say for sure-Ah, they are fighting people, not aliens?

I also get that he wanted to drop us into the confusion of the Dunkirk beaches and the race to get there.

However, remember the soldiers had some context. Obviously, while they did not have grand strategic knowledge-they knew that they had been fighting the Germans for weeks and getting chased across France and Belgium. The audience was not given that context. We get dropped into a firefight a few yards from the beach.

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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#11 Post by MarleysGh0st » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:54 pm

Spock wrote:I totally get why he did it and it works artistically and so forth. However, can you pinpoint the moment in the film where you can say for sure-Ah, they are fighting people, not aliens?
Since I walked into the movie knowing history, I can't say the question ever occurred to me. :roll:

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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#12 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:31 pm

I have troubles with reviews raving about the suspense instilled by the movie. Isn't a basic knowledge of history kind of a massive spoiler? --Bob
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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#13 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:54 pm

Bob78164 wrote:I have troubles with reviews raving about the suspense instilled by the movie. Isn't a basic knowledge of history kind of a massive spoiler? --Bob
The main characters in the movie are fictional, although based on real people. So, while everyone knows that the evacuation as a whole was a major success, the fate of these individual characters is very much up in the air until the end of the movie. It's the same as the storyline in Saving Private Ryan. Knowing the Allies won the war doesn't tell you which of the soldiers in Tom Hanks's unit are going to get through the mission okay.
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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#14 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:57 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:I have troubles with reviews raving about the suspense instilled by the movie. Isn't a basic knowledge of history kind of a massive spoiler? --Bob
The main characters in the movie are fictional, although based on real people. So, while everyone knows that the evacuation as a whole was a major success, the fate of these individual characters is very much up in the air until the end of the movie. It's the same as the storyline in Saving Private Ryan. Knowing the Allies won the war doesn't tell you which of the soldiers in Tom Hanks's unit are going to get through the mission okay.
Maybe that's the issue I had with Dunkirk. I cared about the characters in Saving Private Ryan. Hell, the scene with the hand-to-hand knife fight (particularly its ending) haunted me for years. I never connected with the characters in Dunkirk. --Bob
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Re: SSS Spends Time at Dunkirk

#15 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:36 pm

MarleysGh0st wrote:
Spock wrote:I totally get why he did it and it works artistically and so forth. However, can you pinpoint the moment in the film where you can say for sure-Ah, they are fighting people, not aliens?
Since I walked into the movie knowing history, I can't say the question ever occurred to me. :roll:
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