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 Post subject: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:30 am 
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Two people from our office, including one of the other attorneys in our division are in Las Vegas for a conference. There's no word yet on if they were anywhere near the shootings.

A horrible tragedy; our sympathies go out to all involved.

I'd like to know how someone got that much firepower into a luxury Las Vegas hotel room without anyone noticing.

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:37 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
Two people from our office, including one of the other attorneys in our division are in Las Vegas for a conference. There's no word yet on if they were anywhere near the shootings.

A horrible tragedy; our sympathies go out to all involved.

I'd like to know how someone got that much firepower into a luxury Las Vegas hotel room without anyone noticing.


The videos are absolutely frightening.

I have a friend that was in Bally's at a black jack table at the time. He said someone ran in screaming "active shooter, get down" and they all hit the floor. After a couple of minutes of not hearing any shooting, he got up and ran to the elevators and then went to his room.

edit: And I pray your co-workers are safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:02 am 
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SSS: I would guess they hauled the rifles in disguised as sports equipment & just put signs up to keep cleaning staff out of room.


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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:53 am 
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A bit of good news; one of the people from my office isn't flying in to Las Vegas until today, and the other has reported that he's okay.

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:15 pm 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
A bit of good news; one of the people from my office isn't flying in to Las Vegas until today, and the other has reported that he's okay.
I'm glad your co-workers are safe. My thoughts go out to the scores of dead and hundreds of wounded.

I'm really getting tired of reading about these stories. I wish we'd try to do something about them. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:19 pm 
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Bob78164 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
A bit of good news; one of the people from my office isn't flying in to Las Vegas until today, and the other has reported that he's okay.
I'm glad your co-workers are safe. My thoughts go out to the scores of dead and hundreds of wounded.

I'm really getting tired of reading about these stories. I wish we'd try to do something about them. --Bob

I've got a great idea: Let's all of us on the left join the NRA and oust their president and board of directors and start paying congressmen to ban machine guns.

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:07 pm 
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Bob Juch wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
A bit of good news; one of the people from my office isn't flying in to Las Vegas until today, and the other has reported that he's okay.
I'm glad your co-workers are safe. My thoughts go out to the scores of dead and hundreds of wounded.

I'm really getting tired of reading about these stories. I wish we'd try to do something about them. --Bob

I've got a great idea: Let's all of us on the left join the NRA and oust their president and board of directors and start paying congressmen to ban machine guns.


Machine guns have been banned since 1986. Somehow the law didn't stop this asshole from getting several or converting several semi automatics. Have you ever heard of Pandora? No, not the music app.

Guns have been invented. They are here. You can't put them back into Pandora's box. They don't do anything unless some person uses them. No LAW is going to change that, however well-intentioned. People that abide by the law won't be able to get guns. People who don't abide by the law have something called the Black Market. Guns will always be available there for the right price, either in money or in lives.

We have 50 laboratories to experiment with gun control laws. Let them do whatever they can think of with laws and if one or more of them work, by God, let's do it. Illinois apparently has the some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. Gun control laws do not seem to work there. So what would be different if we replicated them nationwide? Our Congress is all-knowing and all-wise? They will know exactly what to do and how to do it? If you believe that, there is a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you.

Our country has had guns ever since it was founded. Lunatic mass shootings were rare up until the past few decades. Now they are common. We have to ask ourselves, and as liberals say, have a REAL conversation (not a finger pointing contest) about WHY. An in depth and thorough conversation that does not discount any viewpoint as politically incorrect if it has merit. Why are more and more people taking whatever weapons they can find and trying to kill people they don't know? Is it our culture? Is it mental health? Is it the media? What steps can we take that will stop people from doing these horrible things before they do them?

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:51 pm 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
I'm glad your co-workers are safe. My thoughts go out to the scores of dead and hundreds of wounded.

I'm really getting tired of reading about these stories. I wish we'd try to do something about them. --Bob

I've got a great idea: Let's all of us on the left join the NRA and oust their president and board of directors and start paying congressmen to ban machine guns.


Machine guns have been banned since 1986. Somehow the law didn't stop this asshole from getting several or converting several semi automatics. Have you ever heard of Pandora? No, not the music app.

Guns have been invented. They are here. You can't put them back into Pandora's box. They don't do anything unless some person uses them. No LAW is going to change that, however well-intentioned. People that abide by the law won't be able to get guns. People who don't abide by the law have something called the Black Market. Guns will always be available there for the right price, either in money or in lives.

We have 50 laboratories to experiment with gun control laws. Let them do whatever they can think of with laws and if one or more of them work, by God, let's do it. Illinois apparently has the some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. Gun control laws do not seem to work there. So what would be different if we replicated them nationwide? Our Congress is all-knowing and all-wise? They will know exactly what to do and how to do it? If you believe that, there is a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you.

Our country has had guns ever since it was founded. Lunatic mass shootings were rare up until the past few decades. Now they are common. We have to ask ourselves, and as liberals say, have a REAL conversation (not a finger pointing contest) about WHY. An in depth and thorough conversation that does not discount any viewpoint as politically incorrect if it has merit. Why are more and more people taking whatever weapons they can find and trying to kill people they don't know? Is it our culture? Is it mental health? Is it the media? What steps can we take that will stop people from doing these horrible things before they do them?
There are more than 50 laboratories. Australia seems to be doing pretty well in this department. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:29 am 
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There are more than 50 laboratories. Australia seems to be doing pretty well in this department. --Bob


Bob, I will not go over the myriad, valid reasons why what Australia did won't work here, or cite the numerous unintended consequences of what they did. You can read, although you only seem to read what supports your already made up mind. I wish we could all have a reasoned, all-encompassing debate about this issue, but the left does not like to debate. Any valid argument that they don't wish to debate is discounted as coming from 'deplorables' who bitterly 'cling to their guns and religion'. That is not a very effective debate strategy. It kinda gets people upset. Very divisive. But I forget, democrats are not devisive, right?

All I can say is that if you wish to have federal gun laws like Australia, then PASS A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT and go to town. Unless you do that, you are on very questionable legal ground, and there will be massive pushback. You know that. Do you care?

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:56 am 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
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There are more than 50 laboratories. Australia seems to be doing pretty well in this department. --Bob


Bob, I will not go over the myriad, valid reasons why what Australia did won't work here, or cite the numerous unintended consequences of what they did. You can read, although you only seem to read what supports your already made up mind. I wish we could all have a reasoned, all-encompassing debate about this issue, but the left does not like to debate. Any valid argument that they don't wish to debate is discounted as coming from 'deplorables' who bitterly 'cling to their guns and religion'. That is not a very effective debate strategy. It kinda gets people upset. Very divisive. But I forget, democrats are not devisive, right?

All I can say is that if you wish to have federal gun laws like Australia, then PASS A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT and go to town. Unless you do that, you are on very questionable legal ground, and there will be massive pushback. You know that. Do you care?
We don't need a constitutional amendment to pass an assault weapon ban. And I think many people are as tired as I am of reading about daily mass shootings. The Las Vegas incident appears to have resulted in at least one foxhole conversion. Perhaps other like-minded people will find his account of his experience persuasive.

But none of that is the current issue. The current issue is whether it's a good idea. When the idea is good, popularity will eventually happen. Just as it did with same-sex marriage. Just as it did with the Affordable Care Act.

As for which party is divisive: When Democrats controlled Congress at the start of the Obama Administration, they invited Republicans to the table. Republicans chose lockstep opposition to everything the Democrats were doing. Now that Republicans control Congress, they are trying to write legislation in secret with no public hearings and without allowing meaningful Democratic participation. The historical record is clear. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:33 am 
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Bob78164 wrote:
But none of that is the current issue. The current issue is whether it's a good idea. When the idea is good, popularity will eventually happen. Just as it did with same-sex marriage. Just as it did with the Affordable Care Act.



Nobody is going to shoot you if you try to take away their wedding ring or their health care.... at least not with the wedding ring or the health care.

I hate guns. Would love to see the pandora's box closed again. But those who think gun control could be achieved in this country with the snap of some fingers and a vote of Congress vastly, vastly, VASTLY underestimate the people who hoard the guns we don't want people to have anymore. Any effort to actually enforce gun control laws with the crowd who already doesn't trust any authority that can't be found in their Bible would make Prohibition look like a Chuck E. Cheese birthday party, and the Las Vegas incident look like a slap fight...

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:30 am 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Illinois apparently has the some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. Gun control laws do not seem to work there. So what would be different if we replicated them nationwide?


One reason those laws "don't work" is because people in Chicago can drive a half hour to get to Indiana or Wisconsin and buy guns there.

I'm sick and tired of the right wing whining that there's always going to be illegal guns so we can't do anything about them. There's always going to be rape, murder, and robbery, but we do things about them. And because we have laws prohibiting them, we have a lot fewer rapes, murders, and robberies than we would have otherwise. The gun lobby would try to make people believe that every criminal and every nutcase with a grudge is a criminal mastermind who will figure out how to get his hands on illegal weaponry no matter what we do to try to stop it.

Paddock had 29 weapons in the hotel room and a dozen more in his home. How many does anyone need for self-defense?

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:32 am 
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littlebeast13 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
But none of that is the current issue. The current issue is whether it's a good idea. When the idea is good, popularity will eventually happen. Just as it did with same-sex marriage. Just as it did with the Affordable Care Act.



Nobody is going to shoot you if you try to take away their wedding ring or their health care.... at least not with the wedding ring or the health care.

I hate guns. Would love to see the pandora's box closed again. But those who think gun control could be achieved in this country with the snap of some fingers and a vote of Congress vastly, vastly, VASTLY underestimate the people who hoard the guns we don't want people to have anymore. Any effort to actually enforce gun control laws with the crowd who already doesn't trust any authority that can't be found in their Bible would make Prohibition look like a Chuck E. Cheese birthday party, and the Las Vegas incident look like a slap fight...

lb13
Possibly. But we know for damn sure that if we don't try, things like this will keep happening. Because they have been happening.

It's often said that the first job of government is the physical safety of our citizens. Measured by this standard, ours is a miserable failure. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:05 am 
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We don't need a constitutional amendment to pass an assault weapon ban.


Yes, we do.
There are a lot of people who actually believe that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." means that the Federal government does not have the right to infringe on their right to bear arms. Silly people. But they will be upset if the Federal government decides to ignore them and infringes on their right to bear arms. Their argument seems to be that if Washington ignores the Constitution and does what they want in this case, what's to stop them from doing anything else they want to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:10 am 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
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We don't need a constitutional amendment to pass an assault weapon ban.


Yes, we do.
There are a lot of people who actually believe that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." means that the Federal government does not have the right to infringe on their right to bear arms. Silly people.


Those people do not include the members of the Supreme Court of the United States, who have repeatedly held that the Second Amendment does not prohibit all regulation of firearms or the banning of certain types of firearms.

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:21 pm 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Quote:
We don't need a constitutional amendment to pass an assault weapon ban.


Yes, we do.
There are a lot of people who actually believe that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." means that the Federal government does not have the right to infringe on their right to bear arms. Silly people.


Those people do not include the members of the Supreme Court of the United States, who have repeatedly held that the Second Amendment does not prohibit all regulation of firearms or the banning of certain types of firearms.


When the answer is to BAN everything that stupid, mentally ill, malicious or evil people use to hurt innocent people, sooner or later we will have no rights at all. It would be better to concentrate on the stupid, mentally ill, malicious or evil people, instead of taking away freedoms of law-abiding people. But what's the answer to that? I don't know, but THAT is the discussion we should be having. Will the single minded left allow us to have that discussion? Probably not. As you can see from this thread. We've got to do something, they say, even though it won't work, it is impossible to enforce, and it will lead to undesirable unforeseen circumstances.

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:03 pm 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:

Yes, we do.
There are a lot of people who actually believe that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." means that the Federal government does not have the right to infringe on their right to bear arms. Silly people.


Those people do not include the members of the Supreme Court of the United States, who have repeatedly held that the Second Amendment does not prohibit all regulation of firearms or the banning of certain types of firearms.


When the answer is to BAN everything that stupid, mentally ill, malicious or evil people use to hurt innocent people, sooner or later we will have no rights at all. It would be better to concentrate on the stupid, mentally ill, malicious or evil people, instead of taking away freedoms of law-abiding people. But what's the answer to that? I don't know, but THAT is the discussion we should be having. Will the single minded left allow us to have that discussion? Probably not. As you can see from this thread. We've got to do something, they say, even though it won't work, it is impossible to enforce, and it will lead to undesirable unforeseen circumstances.

I don't see SSS or Bob##### calling for a total ban on gun ownership (I may be wrong, of course). I think they are saying that there are (or should be) some common sense limitations that can be enacted. Now I understand the argument that the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to protect people's rights against a potentially tyrannical government. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I understand it.

Your suggestion is to find a way to "concentrate on the stupid, mentally ill, malicious or evil people". All right, how do we do that? I doubt you'd be in favor of mandatory mental health testing for all citizens of the US. Moreover as of this point there isn't any evidence that the Las Vegas shooter was stupid, mentally ill, malicious or evil. His motives are still unknown (as far as I know).

It seems to me that the bottom line is this - gun violence can't be ended, and people who really want to get their hands on guns will always be able to do so. But enacting common sense limitations can reduce the number of guns in circulation, driving up the price and making them harder to obtain.

Maybe the answer isn't to ban guns (since we have the 2nd amendment) but to ban bullets. Then people can own all the guns they want. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:12 pm 
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SSS>>>One reason those laws "don't work" is because people in Chicago can drive a half hour to get to Indiana or Wisconsin and buy guns there. <<<

One would expect then that, given the easy availability of guns in places like Indiana and Wisconsin, the murder rate would be very high in those states.

However, quick Googling indicates that the murder rate in those places is much less than in Chicago. How do you account for the low rates in places where guns are readily available like most of the midwest Vs Chicago?

I come down that most of the problem is attributable to the welfare state which shattered the Black family and lead to missing fathers and broken families. To what do you attribute the difference?

Obviously, also, Indianapolis has a much higher murder rate than the rest of Indiana, and many of the same pathologies found in Chicago apply there as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:15 pm 
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I'm still sorting through these concepts, so try not to be too nasty with me.

I'd wished before that we could (1) get rid of armor-piercing bullets for civilians, (2) get rid of 30-round clips for civilians, and most importantly, (3) keep any guns out of the hands of anyone who is mentally ill.

I am still sure that #3 is a good plan.

I may be changing my position on the first two, though I still don't see why anyone other than a soldier needs cop-killer bullets or automatic rounds. If you hunt with either, you won't have that much usable meat left to eat.

Here is today's revelation: On the way to school, it seemed like there were a ton of terrible drivers. We don't just take away their cars or their licenses. Most gun-owners, and every one I have met, are responsible people who won't be accidentally shooting anyone or leaving their guns where a child can do this. So there is no need to penalize them because there are some bad gun people.

I'm sure if this Las Vegas guy had 42 guns and could hit nearly 600 people from some distance*, he would have passed any gun test we would give. As yet, there seems little evidence that he would have failed a psych test. So how do we fix this? What is one baby step we can take that everyone would agree is a good one?

*I realize it is not much of a challenge to hit people in a crowd even from his distance, with the weapons he had. Still.

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:19 pm 
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earendel wrote:
It seems to me that the bottom line is this - gun violence can't be ended, and people who really want to get their hands on guns will always be able to do so.


I will rephrase...

It seems to me that the bottom line is this - violence can't be ended, and people who really want to harm others will always be able to do so.

And you're right, Ear, we don't know the motive for this horrific act. Until we do, discussing what to do to prevent it is foolish.

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Spock wrote:
SSS>>>One reason those laws "don't work" is because people in Chicago can drive a half hour to get to Indiana or Wisconsin and buy guns there. <<<

One would expect then that, given the easy availability of guns in places like Indiana and Wisconsin, the murder rate would be very high in those states.

However, quick Googling indicates that the murder rate in those places is much less than in Chicago. How do you account for the low rates in places where guns are readily available like most of the midwest Vs Chicago?

I come down that most of the problem is attributable to the welfare state which shattered the Black family and lead to missing fathers and broken families. To what do you attribute the difference?

Obviously, also, Indianapolis has a much higher murder rate than the rest of Indiana, and many of the same pathologies found in Chicago apply there as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Well, since my state got dragged into this discussion, I should probably point out that for the most recent year I could find, Indianapolis had only the fifth highest murder rate in Indiana. Most Hoosiers could probably guess the city with the highest rate, Gary. And Gary fits in with Spock's point pretty well. But how do you explain the second highest rate for towns with more than 10000 population-- Clarksville? It's certainly not "urban" problems. It might be an anomaly, it might be a symptom of the opioid epidemic, or it might be a symptom of the welfare state, since rural whites make much more use of those programs than black folks do here.

My biggest problem is that the deflection arguments like mental health are also meet with inaction. Republicans think mental health is the issue? How about a bill to try to address those issues? The mental health system has been crumbling in this country since the 1980s, when Ronald Reagan, with bipartisan support from a craven Congress, dismantled it, with no replacement. If you think that's truly part of the problem, them propose something to help address it. Stop being a what about, or shut up.

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:11 pm 
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BackInTex wrote:
earendel wrote:
It seems to me that the bottom line is this - gun violence can't be ended, and people who really want to get their hands on guns will always be able to do so.


I will rephrase...

It seems to me that the bottom line is this - violence can't be ended, and people who really want to harm others will always be able to do so.

And you're right, Ear, we don't know the motive for this horrific act. Until we do, discussing what to do to prevent it is foolish.

No, violence can't be ended. But doesn't it make sense to try and limit its scope?

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:27 pm 
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Bob#'s>>>There are more than 50 laboratories. Australia seems to be doing pretty well in this department. --Bob<<<<

Forget about Australia. We have an endless supply of data points here.

For example. compare Montana and Baltimore. The murder rate in Montana (2016) was 3.5. per 100,000 In Baltimore it was 50.

Montana is, obviously, a high gun ownership state. The low murder rate compared to Baltimore tells us that other factors leading to murder may be exponentially more important than the presence of guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Spock wrote:

For example. compare Montana and Baltimore. The murder rate in Montana (2016) was 3.5. per 100,000 In Baltimore it was 50.


Very disingenuous of you here Spock to just happen to pick the city that's had the biggest spike in murders in the last couple of years to use for your comparison.

And population density has a good bit to do with the murder rate as well. The more people you come in close contact with, the more likely that something's going to lead to violence.

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 Post subject: Re: Las Vegas Shootings
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:38 pm 
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It's amazing that the same people who concoct stories of supposed voting fraud and use that as an excuse to put restriction after restriction on the right to vote don't seem to want to limit gun ownership in any way whatsoever despite 59 examples staring them in the face today.

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