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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Estonut wrote:
elwoodblues wrote:
Weinstein's attorney tried to argue, "He didn't invent the casting couch."
I had always thought of the casting couch as a quid-pro-quo type thing, where the otherwise unfuckable geezer gets laid and the ingénue boosts her (or his) career, as in "sleeping one's way to the top."

These recent accounts do not describe such transactions. They are simply harassment, assault and/or rape.
What you're describing as "a quid-pro-quo type thing" falls pretty comfortably within the definition of sexual harassment. If the ingénue has reason to think she needs to offer sex (or tolerate unwelcome sexual overtures) to improve her career prospects, that's harassment. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 6:28 am 
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Bob78164 wrote:
Estonut wrote:
elwoodblues wrote:
Weinstein's attorney tried to argue, "He didn't invent the casting couch."
I had always thought of the casting couch as a quid-pro-quo type thing, where the otherwise unfuckable geezer gets laid and the ingénue boosts her (or his) career, as in "sleeping one's way to the top."

These recent accounts do not describe such transactions. They are simply harassment, assault and/or rape.
What you're describing as "a quid-pro-quo type thing" falls pretty comfortably within the definition of sexual harassment. If the ingénue has reason to think she needs to offer sex (or tolerate unwelcome sexual overtures) to improve her career prospects, that's harassment.
Of course it is sexual harassment, as it is defined today. I'm talking about the historical casting couch from the first days of movies. I thought it was clear when I said that these predators (in those days) were otherwise unfuckable. That means they'd never have a chance with any of these women if they didn't wield some power for the studio. I believe it was still a choice that the subordinate would have to make. It was shitty, it was pervy, it was unfair, but I don't think it went as far as the groping and forced sex being exposed today. They may have been "forced" in terms of comply vs. suffer the consequences of being blackballed, but they were not, for the most part, physically forced to submit.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:12 am 
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Estonut wrote:
They may have been "forced" in terms of comply vs. suffer the consequences of being blackballed, but they were not, for the most part, physically forced to submit.


With the lack of information that came out of those encounters, it's difficult to say how many women were technically forced to submit or not. There is enough anecdotal information to indicate that a lot of cases, if prosecuted in today's climate, could have resulted in sexual assault convictions (such as Louis Mayer seating a 16-year-old Judy Garland on his lap and fondling her).

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:18 am 
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What astounds me is this "unfuckable geezer" claim by Estonut: All of these men were rich, powerful, & most of them very creative too. There are actual women out there to whom some or all of this appeals. So the men didn't look like the male movie stars they hired. So what? Neither do a lot of men who aren't molesting anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:03 am 
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Estonut wrote:
elwoodblues wrote:
Weinstein's attorney tried to argue, "He didn't invent the casting couch."
I had always thought of the casting couch as a quid-pro-quo type thing, where the otherwise unfuckable geezer gets laid and the ingénue boosts her (or his) career, as in "sleeping one's way to the top."

These recent accounts do not describe such transactions. They are simply harassment, assault and/or rape.

You can't sleep your way to the top, only the middle.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:26 pm 
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For some historical perspective, here's an article about one of the first "exposes" about the casting couch, which appeared in a British magazine called Picturegoer in 1956. The article named four actresses, the best known of whom was probably Anne Heywood, who talked about their experiences. None of the men accused in the article were named. And, the article was accompanied by cheesecake photos of the actresses who were interviewed.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/201 ... anged.html

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 6:06 pm 
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ghostjmf wrote:
What astounds me is this "unfuckable geezer" claim by Estonut: All of these men were rich, powerful, & most of them very creative too. There are actual women out there to whom some or all of this appeals.

So the men didn't look like the male movie stars they hired. So what?
I thought it was clear when I said it. I then tried to explain it again, apparently to no avail. I said "otherwise unfuckable geezer," meaning that if these men DID NOT wield the money and power that they did, they would, for the most part, NOT have appealed to these actresses. Those powerful men who were intelligent, suave, classy, worldly, funny, kind (or had any other non-physical attributes that women might find appealing) didn't need such schemes to attract women. The men who needed this type of "arrangement" to sleep with these women were typically older, fatter and/or less handsome than the men to whom the women would usually be attracted. On top of that, these men were nasty, pervy assholes to resort to this behavior.

Of course, this all also applies in situations that were male/male, female/male and female/female, too.

ghostjmf wrote:
Neither do a lot of men who aren't molesting anyone.
I have no idea what point you were trying to make by this. A lot of more-average men don't molest anyone. OK, I didn't say they do.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:56 pm 
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George Takei’s Accuser Has Changed His Story of Drugging and Assault

http://observer.com/2018/05/george-take ... s-assault/

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 5:24 pm 
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Estonut:

A lot of men who objectively had attributes that appeal to women, many of whom had wives, chose to molest aspiring actresses. It was & is *not* a group of "unfuckable geezers" as you keep putting it.

And the schemes didn't *attract* women. They were "you'll never work in this town again" if they didn't comply threats for the most part.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:01 pm 
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ghostjmf wrote:
Estonut:

A lot of men who objectively had attributes that appeal to women, many of whom had wives, chose to molest aspiring actresses.
If you are talking about the historical days of the casting couch, as I was, please name "many" such men.

ghostjmf wrote:
It was & is *not* a group of "unfuckable geezers" as you keep putting it.
I said "OTHERWISE unfuckable geezers" as shorthand for men who, without wielding power over the careers of these women, would, for the most part, not be sleeping with them.

ghostjmf wrote:
And the schemes didn't *attract* women.
I didn't say that. What you have ignored is that I actually said, "Those powerful men who were intelligent, suave, classy, worldly, funny, kind (or had any other non-physical attributes that women might find appealing) didn't need such schemes to attract women."

ghostjmf wrote:
They were "you'll never work in this town again" if they didn't comply threats for the most part.
That's why I said, "The men who needed this type of "arrangement" to sleep with these women were typically older, fatter and/or less handsome than the men to whom the women would usually be attracted. On top of that, these men were nasty, pervy assholes to resort to this behavior."

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Missouri Gov. Eric Greitens (R) is expected to resign, according to multiple reports, amid accusations that he sexually assaulted a woman in 2015 and threatened to release a nude photo of her if she said anything.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:26 pm 
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Bob Juch wrote:
Missouri Gov. Eric Greitens (R) is expected to resign, according to multiple reports, amid accusations that he sexually assaulted a woman in 2015 and threatened to release a nude photo of her if she said anything.
His resignation will be effective at 5:00 p.m. Friday. I assume that's CDT. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Guess Jeans executive chairman Paul Marciano was forced to resign after accusations from Kate Upton and other models.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:53 am 
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Chris Hardwick

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/17/entertai ... index.html

AMC has temporarily placed his talk show, Talking Dead, on hiatus. No word yet if NBC will pull the next season of its Hardwick-hosted Plinko rip-off.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:02 am 
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The Harvey List has one fewer active member. I would say more about this creep, but I had already planned on doing all of that at the end of the year. (Big spoiler there.)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/entertai ... index.html

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