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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:15 am 
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Estonut wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
Add Garrison Keillor now. :shock:
This might be a false accusation:

http://www.startribune.com/garrison-kei ... tion=%2F#1
Any of these might be false accusations, Sherlock!


Well, shoot. If BJ vouches for the guy, it's all good.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:23 am 
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I am sorry for being politically incorrect. My mind has never taken to the PC conditioning. But I have a question. Just for discussion purposes.

We all know that it is inexcusable for men to use power to get sex.
Is it ok for women to use sex to get power? Or does that never happen?

Please don't skewer me. If that is an evil question to ask, please forgive me. I grew up before Political Correctness was required.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:39 am 
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flock:

Sex between consenting adults is OK. If some woman (or man, for that matter) negotiates sex for power, I'd be surprised if they ever get that power. And if they do I'd say that's immoral. It's a bribe. But unless the guy or woman they've negotiated this with, which essentially makes the negotiator a prostitute, assaults the negotiator instead of doing stuff the negotiator-prostitute consented to, it's not assault.

I repeat what I said earlier: When someone, even in what had been a consensual act, says "stop", STOP.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:02 am 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Is it ok for women to use sex to get power? Or does that never happen?


In the vast majority of cases, as we've seen in these revelations that have come out the last couple of months, it's not "using sex to get power" nearly as much as "consenting to sex or keeping quiet about it to prevent being booted completely out the door."

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:04 am 
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Estonut wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
Add Garrison Keillor now. :shock:
This might be a false accusation:

http://www.startribune.com/garrison-kei ... tion=%2F#1
Any of these might be false accusations, Sherlock!

True, but most are believable. This isn't.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Just for the record, about 10 years ago a creep with seniority, though not my actual boss, put their hands on both my clothed shoulders, from the back. I didn't even see them coming toward me.

I'm sure if I'd reported it they'd have said they were comforting me, as I had been pointing out to them the many, many correctable defects in the computer program they were rolling out.

It was not sexual, it was clear intimidation.

I really wish I *had* reported it, but at the time it would have gotten nowhere, & I'd have been allowed even less to say about their defective program.

I'd like to believe Keillor's story, by the way. Even though I haven't thought those cowpoke skits or Guy Noir have been funny for years.

People have described him as borderline Aspergers, & he describes himself the same way. Heavy-handed backrub or assault?

Could this be the reason he quit the show a couple years ago? Haven't read timetable on woman's charges against him.


Last edited by ghostjmf on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Oh yeah, flock: It was technically not "an evil question", but since I know you are smart enough to have known the answer, why ask it?


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:26 pm 
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ghostjmf wrote:
Just for the record, about 10 years ago a creep with seniority, though not my actual boss, put their hands on both my clothed shoulders, from the back. I didn't even see them coming toward me.

I'm sure if I'd reported it they'd have said they were comforting me, as I had been pointing out to them the many, many correctable defects in the computer program they were rolling out.

It was not sexual, it was clear intimidation.

I really wish I *had* reported it, but at the time it would have gotten nowhere, & I'd have been allowed even less to say about their defective program.

I'd like to believe Keillor's story, by the way. Even though I haven't thought those cowpoke skits or Guy Noir have been funny for years.

People have described him as borderline Asbergers, & he describes himself the same way. Heavy-handed backrub or assault?

Could this be the reason he quit the show a couple years ago? Haven't read timetable on woman's charges against him.

Here's Keillor's statement:

“I put my hand on a woman’s bare back,” he told the Star Tribune by e-mail minutes after MPR’s statement. “I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled. I apologized. I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it. We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called.”

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:34 pm 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
I am sorry for being politically incorrect. My mind has never taken to the PC conditioning. But I have a question. Just for discussion purposes.

We all know that it is inexcusable for men to use power to get sex.
Is it ok for women to use sex to get power? Or does that never happen?

Please don't skewer me. If that is an evil question to ask, please forgive me. I grew up before Political Correctness was required.
This has been going on since the beginning of history (for example the Roman empress Messalina). Some women have a thing for older, successful men, and the riches and power are a bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:57 pm 
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jarnon wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
I am sorry for being politically incorrect. My mind has never taken to the PC conditioning. But I have a question. Just for discussion purposes.

We all know that it is inexcusable for men to use power to get sex.
Is it ok for women to use sex to get power? Or does that never happen?

Please don't skewer me. If that is an evil question to ask, please forgive me. I grew up before Political Correctness was required.
This has been going on since the beginning of history (for example the Roman empress Messalina). Some women have a thing for older, successful men, and the riches and power are a bonus.

Her husband, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus, is my 38th great-grandfather.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Bob Juch wrote:
jarnon wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
I am sorry for being politically incorrect. My mind has never taken to the PC conditioning. But I have a question. Just for discussion purposes.

We all know that it is inexcusable for men to use power to get sex.
Is it ok for women to use sex to get power? Or does that never happen?

Please don't skewer me. If that is an evil question to ask, please forgive me. I grew up before Political Correctness was required.
This has been going on since the beginning of history (for example the Roman empress Messalina). Some women have a thing for older, successful men, and the riches and power are a bonus.

Her husband, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus, is my 38th great-grandfather.
Hail Juchus!


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:10 pm 
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BJ, I really *am* descended from Maimonides* & Rashi*. And Rashi at the very least (probably Maimonides too) was descended from King David, or so he (they) said. Why would they lie?

*Famous Jewish scholars, for any who don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:37 pm 
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And though I know it doesn't equate w/ a Caesar, my ancestor Meier(sp?) Katzenellenbogen was appointed King of Poland for a day.

This was in the era when the nobility elected the king from their ranks, & couldn't decide. They knew M. Katzenellenbogen when appointed as place-holder could not keep the throne, as one of their own ranks so appointed might.

(I've gone over this before here.)


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:50 pm 
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ghostjmf wrote:
And though I know it doesn't equate w/ a Caesar, my ancestor Meier(sp?) Katzenellenbogen was appointed King of Poland for a day.

This was in the era when the nobility elected the king from their ranks, & couldn't decide. They knew M. Katzenellenbogen when appointed as place-holder could not keep the throne, as one of their own ranks so appointed might.

(I've gone over this before here.)

I'd love to know how he wound up with the last name of "Cat's Elbow"!

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:56 pm 
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BJ:

Katzenellenbogen was the name of a town, either in Germany or land controlled by Germany at one time. Town was named for an evocatively-shaped bend in the river it was built near.

I used to have an also-Jewish friend last-named London. We can figure that one out.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:15 pm 
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ghostjmf wrote:
BJ:

Katzenellenbogen was the name of a town, either in Germany or land controlled by Germany at one time. Town was named for an evocatively-shaped bend in the river it was built near.

I used to have an also-Jewish friend last-named London. We can figure that one out.

I wonder what the difference is between a cat's elbow and a dogleg.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9238-katzenellenbogen

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:38 pm 
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ghostjmf wrote:
flock:

Sex between consenting adults is OK. If some woman (or man, for that matter) negotiates sex for power, I'd be surprised if they ever get that power. And if they do I'd say that's immoral. It's a bribe. But unless the guy or woman they've negotiated this with, which essentially makes the negotiator a prostitute, assaults the negotiator instead of doing stuff the negotiator-prostitute consented to, it's not assault.

I repeat what I said earlier: When someone, even in what had been a consensual act, says "stop", STOP.
-------------------------------
Oh yeah, flock: It was technically not "an evil question", but since I know you are smart enough to have known the answer, why ask it?


It was ok until you added the pointy stick.

No, I don't know the answer, and I'm not sure our culture does, either. Many of these accusations fall far short of 'assault'. Yet they are having a great effect on the reputations and careers of the accused. Please understand I am not talking about someone physically assaulting someone else, or making sex the condition of getting or keeping a job, which is always wrong. I am talking about flirtation. Is it OK for women in certain situations to flirt with a subordinate, but not men in the same situation?

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Quote:
Her husband, Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus, is my 38th great-grandfather.


Too bad Roman Emperors aren't a protected class. You could have gotten into Harvard like Pocahontas.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Add Geraldo Rivera to the list. Bette Midler says he groped her in the 70s. Geraldo has been defending some of the others on the list.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:04 pm 
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flock: What pointy stick? I did not intend one.

Your Q here is a new one.

Before you asked about woman negotiating sex for power.

I prefer to discuss *any human* negotiating sex for power.

But now you ask about "a woman flirting with a subordinate".

No power negotiation there. The subordinate has no power.

No-one should flirt with a subordinate on the job. If they want to have that unromantic conversation about "are we in a relationship", having it when off the job, & it turns out they are, do their flirting *off* the job.

I dunno if you watch "the Good Doctor", but there was a set-piece Monday night about "what is flirting". Good-Doctor was told it involved the woman giggling & brushing her hair back with her hand. Being high-level-functioning autistic, & therefore very literal, in the understanding of this show, GD started taking notes on when the female colleague who had given him these tips was exhibiting these behaviors with a colleague, & shared them with her.

As long as all any gender is doing is giggling nervously & fiddling with their hair, they are probably not going to get sacked from CBS, NBC, MPR etc. Touching anyone (including self) in a perceived-sexual way, standing around naked, sending feelthy e-mail...not so good.

Auto-co-wreck just changed CBS to CVS. I changed it back. I hope.

Good Doctor gets their autism depiction better than they get some medicine; in the same ep, woman whose throat nodule was lost, so couldn't be analyzed, was immediately scheduled for laryngectomy. It's my understanding this would not be immediate even if she *had* cancer.


Last edited by ghostjmf on Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Add one for Frankin.
CNN wrote:
An Army veteran says Sen. Al Franken groped her in December 2003, telling CNN that while she was deployed in Kuwait, the Minnesota Democrat cupped her breast during a photo op.

Stephanie Kemplin, 41, of Maineville, Ohio, is the fifth woman in two weeks to accuse Franken of inappropriate touching, and the second person to allege that such behavior took place while Franken was on a USO tour. Three of the five women have been identified by name.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:59 pm 
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Bob Juch wrote:
Add Geraldo Rivera to the list. Bette Midler says he groped her in the 70s. Geraldo has been defending some of the others on the list.
I knew these would start to come out once I read his "defense" of Lauer. What a dumbass!

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:30 pm 
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and Gregg Zaun, former Blue Jay, fired from Sportsnet after investigations into inappropriate behavior in the workplace.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:20 am 
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So far Dr. Luke hasn't admitted to anything even though Ke$ha, now Kesha has had a case against him for years. (I don't know either's music; Luke is the music producer who has/had Kesha in an iron-bound contract, but I've read about the case.)

And years ago, my landlord said they stopped using their plumber because "he had said something bad to a tenant" in another building.

There are a lot of cases involving people who are not famous & can't be publicly shamed into losing their livelihood. Which never become court cases. This stuff is really hard to prove unless the victim is hurt physically & can be immediately examined by police & doctors, or have witnesses.

I know of a local case where the victim finally won a horrid union/employer negotiation to get transferred to another post, but their boss, who had witnessed the man who had been grabbing & whispering their desires to the woman (the boss saw the grabbing) remains "laid off". So in work situations the winesses are in danger of getting fired too.

Jobs usually like to transfer the aggressor, or fire both parties, but in this case they wanted to break up a team at the job so they told the victim, after she'd reported him to HR, that she had to train her abuser, & initially laid her off when she refused.

I want to believe all women who accuse men in these cases but *some* have to be fabricated with some other motive. And yes, the women with whom Clinton admittedly had sexual relations who told people at the time they were in a consensual affair with him but now say it was rape come to mind.

And that plumber, who I knew for years never hit on me or any of my housemates. Do I believe "we were just not his type"?


Last edited by ghostjmf on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:50 am 
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Actresses are especially vulnerable to being in situations where if they complain about anything, they get labelled "difficult" & don't get more jobs.

The actress who played Precious, Gabourey Sidibe (yes I looked up spelling) has been labelled "difficult", her agent says, because she needs to have 2 adjacent airline seats booked so that seat neighbors don't complain she's infringing on their space. But the film companies knew GS was very large when they hired her for the part.


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