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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:41 pm 
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I knew it would happen. A classmate of Kavanaugh at Yale has come forward with allegations of sexual misconduct against him that, like what happened with Ford, took place at a party. Ronan Farrow, who is proving to be quite the detective nowadays, has broken the story in the New Yorker.

And while the New Yorker is breaking the story today, the Senate committee learned about it last week, while the Republicans were still pushing for an immediate vote.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... ah-ramirez

Michael Avenatti is also claiming he represents a third accuser, although he hasn't provided any details yet.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:43 pm 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
Bill Cosby will be sentenced on Monday and could get up to 30 years.
He is not a Supreme Court Nominee.
Dude, this is not the Kavanaugh thread. None of these a-holes are Supreme Court nominees.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:22 pm 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob Juch wrote:
Bill Cosby will be sentenced on Monday and could get up to 30 years.


He is not a Supreme Court Nominee.
Flock, you can't blame BJ for returning to the original subject of this thread, which you created.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:26 pm 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
I knew it would happen. A classmate of Kavanaugh at Yale has come forward with allegations of sexual misconduct against him that, like what happened with Ford, took place at a party. Ronan Farrow, who is proving to be quite the detective nowadays, has broken the story in the New Yorker.

And while the New Yorker is breaking the story today, the Senate committee learned about it last week, while the Republicans were still pushing for an immediate vote.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... ah-ramirez

Michael Avenatti is also claiming he represents a third accuser, although he hasn't provided any details yet.
This is like "death by a thousand cuts." At some point Republicans will decide that supporting Kavanaugh is not worth the political cost.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:32 pm 
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jarnon wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
I knew it would happen. A classmate of Kavanaugh at Yale has come forward with allegations of sexual misconduct against him that, like what happened with Ford, took place at a party. Ronan Farrow, who is proving to be quite the detective nowadays, has broken the story in the New Yorker.

And while the New Yorker is breaking the story today, the Senate committee learned about it last week, while the Republicans were still pushing for an immediate vote.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... ah-ramirez

Michael Avenatti is also claiming he represents a third accuser, although he hasn't provided any details yet.
This is like "death by a thousand cuts." At some point Republicans will decide that supporting Kavanaugh is not worth the political cost.
There are many, many problems with this account, too.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:37 pm 
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It's getting almost laughable. And jeopardizes people who may have actually had bad shit happen to them. This is crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:40 pm 
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Beebs52 wrote:
It's getting almost laughable. And jeopardizes people who may have actually had bad shit happen to them. This is crazy.
You think they're both making it up? Because a number of people are corroborating portions of Ramirez's account. This one, like the other, deserves to be investigated. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:32 pm 
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Bob78164 wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:
It's getting almost laughable. And jeopardizes people who may have actually had bad shit happen to them. This is crazy.
You think they're both making it up? Because a number of people are corroborating portions of Ramirez's account. This one, like the other, deserves to be investigated. --Bob


For the Republicans, it wouldn't matter if 100 women came forward. They would find some way to nitpick at every one of them and then complain about the Democrats trying to besmirch the reputation of a judge who was beyond repute. And this woman came forward to the committee last week and got nowhere.

The more people look at Kavanaugh's record, the sleazier it looks.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:42 pm 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:
It's getting almost laughable. And jeopardizes people who may have actually had bad shit happen to them. This is crazy.
You think they're both making it up? Because a number of people are corroborating portions of Ramirez's account. This one, like the other, deserves to be investigated. --Bob


For the Republicans, it wouldn't matter if 100 women came forward. They would find some way to nitpick at every one of them and then complain about the Democrats trying to besmirch the reputation of a judge who was beyond repute. And this woman came forward to the committee last week and got nowhere.

The more people look at Kavanaugh's record, the sleazier it looks.
I wouldn't say the second woman coming forward had no effect. That's when Senator Grassley became so eager to hold the confirmation vote now now now. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:00 am 
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Cory Booker confesses to groping a drunk girl when he was a teenager.

Cory Booker: So much for stealing second

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:49 am 
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Estonut wrote:
Cory Booker confesses to groping a drunk girl when he was a teenager.

Cory Booker: So much for stealing second


If you'll notice, Cory Booker outed himself when he was 23 and his encounter with the girl ended with them being friends, and that it bothered him since that time, and he changed his ways dramatically since the incident.

If Brett Kavanaugh had cleaned up his act and written an article like this when he was 23, we wouldn't be having this entire mess. But he didn't and there's evidence that his attitudes towards women haven't changed over the years; he's just learned to be somewhat more discreet.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:45 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
Estonut wrote:
Cory Booker confesses to groping a drunk girl when he was a teenager.

Cory Booker: So much for stealing second


If you'll notice, Cory Booker outed himself when he was 23 and his encounter with the girl ended with them being friends, and that it bothered him since that time, and he changed his ways dramatically since the incident.

If Brett Kavanaugh had cleaned up his act and written an article like this when he was 23, we wouldn't be having this entire mess. But he didn't and there's evidence that his attitudes towards women haven't changed over the years; he's just learned to be somewhat more discreet.


Kavanaugh just wants to get on the SC so he'll get a shot at Vader-Ginsberg.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:28 pm 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
Estonut wrote:
Cory Booker confesses to groping a drunk girl when he was a teenager.

Cory Booker: So much for stealing second
If you'll notice, Cory Booker outed himself when he was 23 and his encounter with the girl ended with them being friends, and that it bothered him since that time, and he changed his ways dramatically since the incident.
You act as if this negates his actions. It doesn't.

silverscreenselect wrote:
If Brett Kavanaugh had cleaned up his act and written an article like this when he was 23, we wouldn't be having this entire mess. But he didn't and there's evidence that his attitudes towards women haven't changed over the years; he's just learned to be somewhat more discreet.
Bullshit. Then you would have actual evidence.

This wasn't about Kavanaugh. Booker did worse than what Al Franken did. Wasn't it fairly unanimous across party lines that he did the right thing and resigned?

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Estonut wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
Estonut wrote:
Cory Booker confesses to groping a drunk girl when he was a teenager.

Cory Booker: So much for stealing second
If you'll notice, Cory Booker outed himself when he was 23 and his encounter with the girl ended with them being friends, and that it bothered him since that time, and he changed his ways dramatically since the incident.
You act as if this negates his actions. It doesn't.

silverscreenselect wrote:
If Brett Kavanaugh had cleaned up his act and written an article like this when he was 23, we wouldn't be having this entire mess. But he didn't and there's evidence that his attitudes towards women haven't changed over the years; he's just learned to be somewhat more discreet.
Bullshit. Then you would have actual evidence.

This wasn't about Kavanaugh. Booker did worse than what Al Franken did. Wasn't it fairly unanimous across party lines that he did the right thing and resigned?
Not according to that account. According to his account, he groped her breast and at the time it appeared to be consensual. After the fact, she told him that she was drunk at the time and didn't really know what she was doing. I'm willing to forgive a 15-year-old for not recognizing that the woman he's with at the time is drunk, particularly since we have no information at all about what clues to her condition he had at the time.

That's very different from being drunk yourself and (whether or not in a drunken fog) attempting to forcibly rape an unwilling partner who is trying to cry out. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:43 pm 
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Bob78164 wrote:
Not according to that account. According to his account, he groped her breast and at the time it appeared to be consensual. After the fact, she told him that she was drunk at the time and didn't really know what she was doing. I'm willing to forgive a 15-year-old for not recognizing that the woman he's with at the time is drunk, particularly since we have no information at all about what clues to her condition he had at the time.
Read it again. He titled it, "Stealing Second Base." If he thought it was consensual, how was he stealing? Further, he said, "After having my hand pushed away once, I reached my 'mark.'" If she pushed his hand away, she was declining/denying his advances. He should have stopped. He didn't.

Bob78164 wrote:
That's very different from being drunk yourself and (whether or not in a drunken fog) attempting to forcibly rape an unwilling partner who is trying to cry out.
As I said before, this isn't about Kavanaugh. Booker did worse than what Al Franken did. Wasn't it fairly unanimous across party lines that he did the right thing and resigned?

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:17 pm 
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Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Not according to that account. According to his account, he groped her breast and at the time it appeared to be consensual. After the fact, she told him that she was drunk at the time and didn't really know what she was doing. I'm willing to forgive a 15-year-old for not recognizing that the woman he's with at the time is drunk, particularly since we have no information at all about what clues to her condition he had at the time.
Read it again. He titled it, "Stealing Second Base." If he thought it was consensual, how was he stealing? Further, he said, "After having my hand pushed away once, I reached my 'mark.'" If she pushed his hand away, she was declining/denying his advances. He should have stopped. He didn't.

Bob78164 wrote:
That's very different from being drunk yourself and (whether or not in a drunken fog) attempting to forcibly rape an unwilling partner who is trying to cry out.
As I said before, this isn't about Kavanaugh. Booker did worse than what Al Franken did. Wasn't it fairly unanimous across party lines that he did the right thing and resigned?
A 15-year-old boy persisting once after having his hand pushed away once in a single incident (by a woman who had just surprised him with a passionate kiss) isn't remotely close to as bad as what Franken did repeatedly as an adult.

I don't know about Stanford, but in most newspapers the authors don't select their own headlines so it's not clear that Booker is responsible for the title that the article was published under. Even if he was, it's a reference to his commentary on general societal attitudes, not his conduct in this particular instance. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:54 pm 
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That's very different from being drunk yourself and (whether or not in a drunken fog) attempting to forcibly rape an unwilling partner who is trying to cry out.


bob-tel, you call yourself an ethical, above-average lawyer. Don't you think, as such, you should have put an 'allegedly' in that sentence, or do you think it is fact already?

As I warned you when Obama started using his pen and phone, if your side is going to go back into high school to find dirt on someone they don't want confirmed, don't be complaining when it happens to someone you do like. Your comrades are real good at establishing dangerous precedents. If you really don't like Kavanaugh, I suggest you blame Harry Reid for unilaterally taking away the filibuster on lower court nominations (there's another precedent that's backfired) and Chuck Schumer for blowing his wad on Gorsuch.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:58 pm 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Quote:
That's very different from being drunk yourself and (whether or not in a drunken fog) attempting to forcibly rape an unwilling partner who is trying to cry out.


bob-tel, you call yourself an ethical, above-average lawyer. Don't you think, as such, you should have put an 'allegedly' in that sentence, or do you think it is fact already?

As I warned you when Obama started using his pen and phone, if your side is going to go back into high school to find dirt on someone they don't want confirmed, don't be complaining when it happens to someone you do like. Your comrades are real good at establishing dangerous precedents. If you really don't like Kavanaugh, I suggest you blame Harry Reid for unilaterally taking away the filibuster on lower court nominations (there's another precedent that's backfired) and Chuck Schumer for blowing his wad on Gorsuch.
My sentence didn't say that Kavanaugh's the one who did that to Dr. Blasey Ford, so the word "allegedly" is not appropriate.

And if you think Mitch McConnell would have hesitated for an instant before removing the filibuster to confirm Supreme Court Justices, then you're smoking crack. At least this way the Democrats got some judges on the bench while they had a chance. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:59 pm 
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Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Quote:
That's very different from being drunk yourself and (whether or not in a drunken fog) attempting to forcibly rape an unwilling partner who is trying to cry out.


bob-tel, you call yourself an ethical, above-average lawyer. Don't you think, as such, you should have put an 'allegedly' in that sentence, or do you think it is fact already?

As I warned you when Obama started using his pen and phone, if your side is going to go back into high school to find dirt on someone they don't want confirmed, don't be complaining when it happens to someone you do like. Your comrades are real good at establishing dangerous precedents. If you really don't like Kavanaugh, I suggest you blame Harry Reid for unilaterally taking away the filibuster on lower court nominations (there's another precedent that's backfired) and Chuck Schumer for blowing his wad on Gorsuch.
My sentence didn't say that Kavanaugh's the one who did that to Dr. Blasey Ford, so the word "allegedly" is not appropriate.

And if you think Mitch McConnell would have hesitated for an instant before removing the filibuster to confirm Supreme Court Justices, then you're smoking crack. At least this way the Democrats got some judges on the bench while they had a chance. --Bob


I assure you, I am not smoking crack. You might want to remember the old adage that people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. The dems stretch or break the rules, and then scream bloody murder when it's done to them.


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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:04 am 
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Bob78164 wrote:
Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Not according to that account. According to his account, he groped her breast and at the time it appeared to be consensual. After the fact, she told him that she was drunk at the time and didn't really know what she was doing. I'm willing to forgive a 15-year-old for not recognizing that the woman he's with at the time is drunk, particularly since we have no information at all about what clues to her condition he had at the time.
Read it again. He titled it, "Stealing Second Base." If he thought it was consensual, how was he stealing? Further, he said, "After having my hand pushed away once, I reached my 'mark.'" If she pushed his hand away, she was declining/denying his advances. He should have stopped. He didn't.

Bob78164 wrote:
That's very different from being drunk yourself and (whether or not in a drunken fog) attempting to forcibly rape an unwilling partner who is trying to cry out.
As I said before, this isn't about Kavanaugh. Booker did worse than what Al Franken did. Wasn't it fairly unanimous across party lines that he did the right thing and resigned?
A 15-year-old boy persisting once after having his hand pushed away once in a single incident (by a woman who had just surprised him with a passionate kiss) isn't remotely close to as bad as what Franken did repeatedly as an adult.
What happened to the staunch defender of women that you once were? Does that only apply to accused people that you don't like?

Can you read? He "persisted once" to reach his target. He wrote, "...I slowly reached for her breast. After having my hand pushed away once, I reached my “mark.” Our groping ended soon and while no “relationship” ensued." Since his groping ended "soon," but not immediately, that means he continued more than once.

Bob78164 wrote:
I don't know about Stanford, but in most newspapers the authors don't select their own headlines so it's not clear that Booker is responsible for the title that the article was published under. Even if he was, it's a reference to his commentary on general societal attitudes, not his conduct in this particular instance.
I doubt that the headline was written by an editor. Had his story been proofread/edited prior to publication, someone might have noticed that the song "ringing in his head" was not written until 2 years later.

Towards the bottom of the article he writes, "I see myself at 15 trotting around the bases and stealing second." Do you think he had switched the topic to baseball?

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:20 am 
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Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Estonut wrote:
Read it again. He titled it, "Stealing Second Base." If he thought it was consensual, how was he stealing? Further, he said, "After having my hand pushed away once, I reached my 'mark.'" If she pushed his hand away, she was declining/denying his advances. He should have stopped. He didn't.

As I said before, this isn't about Kavanaugh. Booker did worse than what Al Franken did. Wasn't it fairly unanimous across party lines that he did the right thing and resigned?
A 15-year-old boy persisting once after having his hand pushed away once in a single incident (by a woman who had just surprised him with a passionate kiss) isn't remotely close to as bad as what Franken did repeatedly as an adult.
What happened to the staunch defender of women that you once were? Does that only apply to accused people that you don't like?

Can you read? He "persisted once" to reach his target. He wrote, "...I slowly reached for her breast. After having my hand pushed away once, I reached my “mark.” Our groping ended soon and while no “relationship” ensued." Since his groping ended "soon," but not immediately, that means he continued more than once.

Bob78164 wrote:
I don't know about Stanford, but in most newspapers the authors don't select their own headlines so it's not clear that Booker is responsible for the title that the article was published under. Even if he was, it's a reference to his commentary on general societal attitudes, not his conduct in this particular instance.
I doubt that the headline was written by an editor. Had his story been proofread/edited prior to publication, someone might have noticed that the song "ringing in his head" was not written until 2 years later.

Towards the bottom of the article he writes, "I see myself at 15 trotting around the bases and stealing second." Do you think he had switched the topic to baseball?
After the first refusal he received apparent consent when she didn't push away a slow approach. There was no power disparity, no physical force, and no threat of physical force. There is, however, evidence that she was not in retrospect offended by what had occurred. Have you never asked a woman out a second time after a first refusal?

At most, there was a failure to recognize that the woman (who initiated the encounter according to his account) was drunk. And yes, I'm willing to cut a 15-year-old some slack for that. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:03 am 
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Bob78164 wrote:
Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
A 15-year-old boy persisting once after having his hand pushed away once in a single incident (by a woman who had just surprised him with a passionate kiss) isn't remotely close to as bad as what Franken did repeatedly as an adult.
What happened to the staunch defender of women that you once were? Does that only apply to accused people that you don't like?

Can you read? He "persisted once" to reach his target. He wrote, "...I slowly reached for her breast. After having my hand pushed away once, I reached my “mark.” Our groping ended soon and while no “relationship” ensued." Since his groping ended "soon," but not immediately, that means he continued more than once.

Bob78164 wrote:
I don't know about Stanford, but in most newspapers the authors don't select their own headlines so it's not clear that Booker is responsible for the title that the article was published under. Even if he was, it's a reference to his commentary on general societal attitudes, not his conduct in this particular instance.
I doubt that the headline was written by an editor. Had his story been proofread/edited prior to publication, someone might have noticed that the song "ringing in his head" was not written until 2 years later.

Towards the bottom of the article he writes, "I see myself at 15 trotting around the bases and stealing second." Do you think he had switched the topic to baseball?
After the first refusal he received apparent consent when she didn't push away a slow approach. There was no power disparity, no physical force, and no threat of physical force. There is, however, evidence that she was not in retrospect offended by what had occurred.
He didn't say the second approach was slow, just that it hit its mark. Also, consent is received before an act, not determined by someone's reaction to it. Whether or not she was in retrospect offended has no bearing on his action. The actual evidence is that he didn't say, "here's the night I got to second base." He called his action "stealing second base."

Bob78164 wrote:
Have you never asked a woman out a second time after a first refusal?
No.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:36 am 
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Estonut wrote:
What happened to the staunch defender of women that you once were? Does that only apply to accused people that you don't like?

Can you read? He "persisted once" to reach his target. He wrote, "...I slowly reached for her breast. After having my hand pushed away once, I reached my “mark.” Our groping ended soon and while no “relationship” ensued." Since his groping ended "soon," but not immediately, that means he continued more than once.


Well, you yourself said it when you referred to "accused people." No one who had any relationship with Booker or who knew anything about Booker at the time has accused him of anything. According to Booker's story, the woman wasn't bothered by whatever happened, at least not to the extent of it standing in the way of their friendship. Also missing from Booker's account, probably for reasons of good taste, is a discussion of what went on after he "made contact." Further, she never said "no." All that happened was some non-verbal contact between the two, followed by other things that Booker didn't discuss (which presumably did not lead to going anywhere beyond second base).

What you do have here is confession and atonement, at least as those terms are understood by every religion, and it's not clear just what Booker was confessing to (since he was drunk at the time as well, his recollection may well have been hazy). He outed himself when there was no legal or political need to do so at age 23. This is as opposed to Kavanaugh, Roy Moore, Kevin Spacey, and others who simply deny, deny, deny, and attack the accusers.

And I'll say that if Brett Kavanaugh or Roy Moore had simply been accused of doing what Booker says in the article, with or without outing themselves, then I would agree that the accusations were an attempt at a hatchet job.

MEA CULPA - Fixed misattributed quote.

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:17 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
Estonut wrote:
What happened to the staunch defender of women that you once were? Does that only apply to accused people that you don't like?

Can you read? He "persisted once" to reach his target. He wrote, "...I slowly reached for her breast. After having my hand pushed away once, I reached my “mark.” Our groping ended soon and while no “relationship” ensued." Since his groping ended "soon," but not immediately, that means he continued more than once.


Well, you yourself said it when you referred to "accused people." No one who had any relationship with Booker or who knew anything about Booker at the time has accused him of anything. According to Booker's story, the woman wasn't bothered by whatever happened, at least not to the extent of it standing in the way of their friendship. Also missing from Booker's account, probably for reasons of good taste, is a discussion of what went on after he "made contact." Further, she never said "no." All that happened was some non-verbal contact between the two, followed by other things that Booker didn't discuss (which presumably did not lead to going anywhere beyond second base).

What you do have here is confession and atonement, at least as those terms are understood by every religion, and it's not clear just what Booker was confessing to (since he was drunk at the time as well, his recollection may well have been hazy). He outed himself when there was no legal or political need to do so at age 23. This is as opposed to Kavanaugh, Roy Moore, Kevin Spacey, and others who simply deny, deny, deny, and attack the accusers.

And I'll say that if Brett Kavanaugh or Roy Moore had simply been accused of doing what Booker says in the article, with or without outing themselves, then I would agree that the accusations were an attempt at a hatchet job.
You have misattributed Estonut's words to me. --Bob

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 Post subject: Re: The Harvey List
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:54 am 
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Bob78164 wrote:
You have misattributed Estonut's words to me. --Bob


Mea Culpa, those quote thingies mess me up sometimes.

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