Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#26 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:10 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
a1mamacat wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
Bankrupting and destroying the best healthcare system in the world. Yes, that.

When I need cataract surgery, I don't want to wait months and then hope for a cancellation.
Some of us in this world don't have the wherewithal to spend $2,000 that easily. Glad you will be able to pay for whatever medical needs you or your family has, without anyone else having to supplement you.
I am a big believer that if the f**king government would just get out of the way and stop trying to fix things, the market would sort it out and make healthcare available and affordable to all. But they won't. It's a big source of power for them, and Obama gave them a yuuuge slice of the pie, over the objections of most of us. Forget Haiti and Somalia, the biggest shithole in the world is Washington DC.
The market did a really crappy job for many, many years. The insurance industry is the perfect storm of conditions for market failure. Decidedly asymmetric access to information and, when the time comes, a complete inability to walk away from the bargain. Or do you want to return to the bad old days when insurance companies could and would rescind your coverage because they suddenly discovered that you actually needed it? Being in the right legally doesn't help you that much if by the time you can prove it in court, you're already dead (or too broke to keep fighting). --Bob
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#27 Post by BackInTex » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:19 am

a1mamacat wrote: Some of us in this world don't have the wherewithal to spend $2,000 that easily. Glad you will be able to pay for whatever medical needs you or your family has, without anyone else having to supplement you.
Most folks do. We all spend money on non-essential things, discretionary spending, if you will. If it was important to you, you could find $2,000, easily. Cigarettes, cell phone, cable, eating out, vacations, etc. The problem today is many people see no problem spending their own money on such discretionary things while others are footing the bills, some in the way of subsidies or all in the way of welfare, for what they deem necessities (housing, food, medical care).

And I'm not singling out your situation as welfare or someone else footing your bill. You are paying into your country's health system. Its the deal you have. I don't want it here for several reasons, but two are:
1) It inflates the price of healthcare due to administrative waste (red tape as the government is never as efficient and effective as the private sector) and increasing the demand due to price controls
2) Limiting supply (and quality of supply) due to the artificial pricing on the demand side (i.e. free or supplemented for the consumer)
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#28 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:14 am

BackInTex wrote:1) It inflates the price of healthcare due to administrative waste (red tape as the government is never as efficient and effective as the private sector) and increasing the demand due to price controls
The government is probably less efficient that the private sector, but the private sector more than makes up for that in the profits it makes. As Bob Numbers has pointed out many times, an insurance based system of paying for healthcare inflates costs tremendously.
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#29 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:16 am

BackInTex wrote: We all spend money on non-essential things, discretionary spending, if you will. If it was important to you, you could find $2,000, easily.
What if the cost of the operation was $20,000 or $200,000? Could most people find that easily? Or do they just suffer and/or die?
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#30 Post by Bob Juch » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:59 am

BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:What's funny is we were 6 or 7 years into the Obama administration and he was still blaming Bush for his lack of progress on anything important.
You mean like getting tens of millions of Americans on health insurance for the first time? Progress that Donny's sabotage has already started to reverse? --Bob
Bankrupting and destroying the best healthcare system in the world. Yes, that.

When I need cataract surgery, I don't want to wait months and then hope for a cancellation.
How did he damage the healthcare system of the EU countries, the world's best?
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#31 Post by BackInTex » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:49 am

Bob Juch wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:You mean like getting tens of millions of Americans on health insurance for the first time? Progress that Donny's sabotage has already started to reverse? --Bob
Bankrupting and destroying the best healthcare system in the world. Yes, that.

When I need cataract surgery, I don't want to wait months and then hope for a cancellation.
How did he damage the healthcare system of the EU countries, the world's best?
Everyone's a comedian. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#32 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:00 pm

BackInTex wrote:1) It inflates the price of healthcare due to administrative waste (red tape as the government is never as efficient and effective as the private sector) and increasing the demand due to price controls
Here, you're choosing theory over decades of actual evidence. That's called being an ideologue.

Well over 90% (I'm pretty sure the number is around 98%) of each dollar spent on Medicare goes to paying for medical care. There isn't a private insurance company in the country that can come close to that ratio.

And little wonder -- in this case your theory is unsound because you're ignoring the factors I cited above that lead to market failure. Private insurance companies have to pay for marketing to compete for business. Private insurance companies pay their executives multimillion dollar salaries. And private insurance companies have to make a profit.

In addition, private insurance companies have an economic incentive to refuse coverage. We know from recent history that they're more than happy to do so. And customers don't have, and can't get, the information necessary to distinguish the good insurance companies from that bad ones, so we can't count on the free market to correct those abuses. --Bob
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#33 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:28 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:1) It inflates the price of healthcare due to administrative waste (red tape as the government is never as efficient and effective as the private sector) and increasing the demand due to price controls
Here, you're choosing theory over decades of actual evidence. That's called being an ideologue.

Well over 90% (I'm pretty sure the number is around 98%) of each dollar spent on Medicare goes to paying for medical care. There isn't a private insurance company in the country that can come close to that ratio.

And little wonder -- in this case your theory is unsound because you're ignoring the factors I cited above that lead to market failure. Private insurance companies have to pay for marketing to compete for business. Private insurance companies pay their executives multimillion dollar salaries. And private insurance companies have to make a profit.

In addition, private insurance companies have an economic incentive to refuse coverage. We know from recent history that they're more than happy to do so. And customers don't have, and can't get, the information necessary to distinguish the good insurance companies from that bad ones, so we can't count on the free market to correct those abuses. --Bob
bob, you live in a fantasy world.

The major factors that you neglect to mention or even think about is that the government has NO incentive to be efficient. In fact, it has major incentives to be inefficient. Dealing with any government agency will reinforce that fact. Add to that the fact that they have NO incentive to be innovative or find better ways of doing things. There are important government agencies that still use floppy discs. Give me a company that is efficient, innovative and profit motivated over the government in any area where it is not necessary for government to be in every time. I'll pay the multi-million dollar executive to run the company., who is responsible for it's success, rather than the thousands of unmotivated bureaucrats that will just go through the motions.

I also dispute your 90% figure. There are millions if not billions of dollars of fraud in medicare every year. Do you count that as medical care?
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#34 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:02 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
BackInTex wrote:1) It inflates the price of healthcare due to administrative waste (red tape as the government is never as efficient and effective as the private sector) and increasing the demand due to price controls
Here, you're choosing theory over decades of actual evidence. That's called being an ideologue.

Well over 90% (I'm pretty sure the number is around 98%) of each dollar spent on Medicare goes to paying for medical care. There isn't a private insurance company in the country that can come close to that ratio.

And little wonder -- in this case your theory is unsound because you're ignoring the factors I cited above that lead to market failure. Private insurance companies have to pay for marketing to compete for business. Private insurance companies pay their executives multimillion dollar salaries. And private insurance companies have to make a profit.

In addition, private insurance companies have an economic incentive to refuse coverage. We know from recent history that they're more than happy to do so. And customers don't have, and can't get, the information necessary to distinguish the good insurance companies from that bad ones, so we can't count on the free market to correct those abuses. --Bob
bob, you live in a fantasy world.

The major factors that you neglect to mention or even think about is that the government has NO incentive to be efficient. In fact, it has major incentives to be inefficient. Dealing with any government agency will reinforce that fact. Add to that the fact that they have NO incentive to be innovative or find better ways of doing things. There are important government agencies that still use floppy discs. Give me a company that is efficient, innovative and profit motivated over the government in any area where it is not necessary for government to be in every time. I'll pay the multi-million dollar executive to run the company., who is responsible for it's success, rather than the thousands of unmotivated bureaucrats that will just go through the motions.

I also dispute your 90% figure. There are millions if not billions of dollars of fraud in medicare every year. Do you count that as medical care?
Dispute all you want. You're entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts and the facts here are clear, and are utterly inconsistent with your ideological position.

The numbers for Medicare are very well documented. Fraud (which also victimizes private insurance companies) is included in the numbers. --Bob
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#35 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:04 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:The major factors that you neglect to mention or even think about is that the government has NO incentive to be efficient. In fact, it has major incentives to be inefficient. Dealing with any government agency will reinforce that fact. Add to that the fact that they have NO incentive to be innovative or find better ways of doing things. There are important government agencies that still use floppy discs. Give me a company that is efficient, innovative and profit motivated over the government in any area where it is not necessary for government to be in every time. I'll pay the multi-million dollar executive to run the company., who is responsible for it's success, rather than the thousands of unmotivated bureaucrats that will just go through the motions.
By the way, how many Medicare patients do you know who are pining to turn down their coverage and rely solely on private insurance companies? I must have missed those stories. --Bob
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#36 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:27 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: The major factors that you neglect to mention or even think about is that the government has NO incentive to be efficient.
A lot of the "inefficiency" are protections for the rights and interests of those the government serves. It's inefficient to try to cover everyone regardless of pre-existing conditions. It's inefficient to take the time to evaluate and process claims fully and fairly. Heck, our jury system is inefficient in comparison with mandatory arbitration.

Your blind faith in big business to treat you right because it's in their best interest to do so is naïve and that sort of thinking led to the Exxon oil spill and the economic collapse of 2008. And now Trump is hellbent on repeating the same mistakes that led to those catastrophes in the name of short term "efficiency" and profit. And he's got you cheering him along as he goes.
Last edited by silverscreenselect on Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#37 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:32 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: The major factors that you neglect to mention or even think about is that the government has NO incentive to be efficient.
A lot of the "inefficiency" are protections for the rights and interests of those the government serves. It's inefficient to try to cover everyone regardless of pre-existing conditions. It's inefficient to take the time to evaluate and process claims fully and fairly. Heck, our jury system is inefficient in comparison with mandatory arbitration.

Your blind faith in big business to treat you right because it's in their best interest to do so is naïve and that sort of thinking led to the Exxon oil spill and the economic collapse of 2008. And now Trump is hellbent on repeating the same mistakes that led to those catastrophes in the name of short term "efficiency" and profit. And he's got you cheering him along as he goes.
You have misattributed the quote. --Bob
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#38 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:37 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: The major factors that you neglect to mention or even think about is that the government has NO incentive to be efficient.
A lot of the "inefficiency" are protections for the rights and interests of those the government serves. It's inefficient to try to cover everyone regardless of pre-existing conditions. It's inefficient to take the time to evaluate and process claims fully and fairly. Heck, our jury system is inefficient in comparison with mandatory arbitration.

Your blind faith in big business to treat you right because it's in their best interest to do so is naïve and that sort of thinking led to the Exxon oil spill and the economic collapse of 2008. And now Trump is hellbent on repeating the same mistakes that led to those catastrophes in the name of short term "efficiency" and profit. And he's got you cheering him along as he goes.
You have misattributed the quote. --Bob
No, that was Flock's quote, right after he said "Bob you live in a fantasy world."
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#39 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:39 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
A lot of the "inefficiency" are protections for the rights and interests of those the government serves. It's inefficient to try to cover everyone regardless of pre-existing conditions. It's inefficient to take the time to evaluate and process claims fully and fairly. Heck, our jury system is inefficient in comparison with mandatory arbitration.

Your blind faith in big business to treat you right because it's in their best interest to do so is naïve and that sort of thinking led to the Exxon oil spill and the economic collapse of 2008. And now Trump is hellbent on repeating the same mistakes that led to those catastrophes in the name of short term "efficiency" and profit. And he's got you cheering him along as he goes.
You have misattributed the quote. --Bob
No, that was Flock's quote, right after he said "Bob you live in a fantasy world."
It was, but if you look at your post, you'll see that you originally attributed the language to me. I fixed it in my post when I quoted you, but you'll need to edit yours to fix it. --Bob
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#40 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:58 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:You have misattributed the quote. --Bob
No, that was Flock's quote, right after he said "Bob you live in a fantasy world."
It was, but if you look at your post, you'll see that you originally attributed the language to me. I fixed it in my post when I quoted you, but you'll need to edit yours to fix it. --Bob
Sorry about that; fixed it.
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#41 Post by BackInTex » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:14 pm

Bob78164 wrote:By the way, how many Medicare patients do you know who are pining to turn down their coverage and rely solely on private insurance companies? I must have missed those stories. --Bob
I've never seen or heard of a lottery winner turning down their winnings. That doesn't make a lottery ticket a good investment.
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#42 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:56 pm

BackInTex wrote: I've never seen or heard of a lottery winner turning down their winnings. That doesn't make a lottery ticket a good investment.
I beg to differ. It's a great investment for me.
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#43 Post by BackInTex » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:27 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote: I've never seen or heard of a lottery winner turning down their winnings. That doesn't make a lottery ticket a good investment.
I beg to differ. It's a great investment for me.
I know. You're one of the bureaucrats.
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#44 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:31 pm

BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote: I've never seen or heard of a lottery winner turning down their winnings. That doesn't make a lottery ticket a good investment.
I beg to differ. It's a great investment for me.
I know. You're one of the bureaucrats.
I think you misspelled "customers." --Bob
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#45 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:57 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:The major factors that you neglect to mention or even think about is that the government has NO incentive to be efficient. In fact, it has major incentives to be inefficient. Dealing with any government agency will reinforce that fact. Add to that the fact that they have NO incentive to be innovative or find better ways of doing things. There are important government agencies that still use floppy discs. Give me a company that is efficient, innovative and profit motivated over the government in any area where it is not necessary for government to be in every time. I'll pay the multi-million dollar executive to run the company., who is responsible for it's success, rather than the thousands of unmotivated bureaucrats that will just go through the motions.
By the way, how many Medicare patients do you know who are pining to turn down their coverage and rely solely on private insurance companies? I must have missed those stories. --Bob
Ponzi schemes work great in the beginning.
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#46 Post by Bob78164 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:52 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:The major factors that you neglect to mention or even think about is that the government has NO incentive to be efficient. In fact, it has major incentives to be inefficient. Dealing with any government agency will reinforce that fact. Add to that the fact that they have NO incentive to be innovative or find better ways of doing things. There are important government agencies that still use floppy discs. Give me a company that is efficient, innovative and profit motivated over the government in any area where it is not necessary for government to be in every time. I'll pay the multi-million dollar executive to run the company., who is responsible for it's success, rather than the thousands of unmotivated bureaucrats that will just go through the motions.
By the way, how many Medicare patients do you know who are pining to turn down their coverage and rely solely on private insurance companies? I must have missed those stories. --Bob
Ponzi schemes work great in the beginning.
Medicare is now more than 50 years old. This sounds like all the Republicans who were saying during the Obama Administration that inflation will start to spiral out of control any day now, so we’d better reduce those deficits. Of course, deflation was the greater risk, inflation never happened, and the Republicans used their unified control of government to blow a trillion-dollar hole in the deficit. So forgive me if I’m more than a little skeptical of their economic analysis. Or their honesty. —Bob
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#47 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:57 am

Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:By the way, how many Medicare patients do you know who are pining to turn down their coverage and rely solely on private insurance companies? I must have missed those stories. --Bob
Ponzi schemes work great in the beginning.
Medicare is now more than 50 years old. This sounds like all the Republicans who were saying during the Obama Administration that inflation will start to spiral out of control any day now, so we’d better reduce those deficits. Of course, deflation was the greater risk, inflation never happened, and the Republicans used their unified control of government to blow a trillion-dollar hole in the deficit. So forgive me if I’m more than a little skeptical of their economic analysis. Or their honesty. —Bob
Oh, you believe that I'm defending the republicans? Silly you. You and your 2-dimensional thinking....
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Re: Majority of National Park Service advisory board resigns

#48 Post by Bob78164 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:43 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Ponzi schemes work great in the beginning.
Medicare is now more than 50 years old. This sounds like all the Republicans who were saying during the Obama Administration that inflation will start to spiral out of control any day now, so we’d better reduce those deficits. Of course, deflation was the greater risk, inflation never happened, and the Republicans used their unified control of government to blow a trillion-dollar hole in the deficit. So forgive me if I’m more than a little skeptical of their economic analysis. Or their honesty. —Bob
Oh, you believe that I'm defending the republicans? Silly you. You and your 2-dimensional thinking....
No. I'm saying you're making arguments that are just as indefensible as theirs, in pretty much the same way. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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