Plan to Destroy America

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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#26 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:16 pm

earendel wrote:As much as I dread getting into this, I would like to make a point or two.
flockofseagulls104 wrote:...democrats believe that most people who have come here illegally will vote for democrats if given the right to vote.
If that's true, then maybe the solution is for the Republicans to champion policies that these people, if they could vote, would choose to support. Win their hearts.
flockofseagulls104 wrote:The truth is that he knows that the DACA thing that Obama did is invalid and he is forcing Congress to legislate it, which is how it should have been done in the first place. He wants some form of legal status for these people. It is obvious, because in his latest proposal he has more than doubled the number of people included in DACA, and has said the words 'path to citizenship'. But you trump haters will continue your assigned mission no matter what the facts are.
If that is what Trump wanted, then why not simply propose a "clean bill" that would provide the "Dreamers" with their path to citizenship without holding it hostage by adding other provisions to it.
flockofseagulls104 wrote:Here is my solution:
B. End of the immigration lottery system. Make immigration a merit-based system, like other countries do.
That won't solve the problem of who picks the produce that American farmers grow. Do you really think that "merit-based" immigrants are going to want to do the back-breaking toil necessary?
flockofseagulls104 wrote:C. End of Sanctuary Cities, States, etc.
If the administration (and before it, the Obama administration) hadn't "weaponized" ICE, then sanctuary cities wouldn't be necessary. Candidate Trump spoke about getting rid of the "bad hombres", a laudable goal. But deporting someone (not a Hispanic, BTW) because of misdemeanors committed when he was young (one of which was expunged from his record) is a vast overreach, IMO.
flockofseagulls104 wrote:D. Appropriation for trump's wall. This appropriation will require a guarantee that the appropriations must continue until the wall is built according to specifications set forth beforehand. Money for a wall has been passed by congress a couple of times before, only to have the next congress take the appropriations off the table. Many of the people who are totally against a wall today voted to fund a wall in the past. (But the msm media won't tell you that.)
The process for becoming a citizen takes many years. The wall, as trump wants it, can be built before any daca people will be eligible to take oaths of citizenship. No daca person will be granted citizenship before the wall is completed.
First, the wall is a pipe dream. I have no quarrel with the addition of more Border Patrol agents or using electronic means to patrol the border (drones, etc.). Second, Candidate Trump said that Mexico would pay for the wall - whatever happened to that?
I think it's entirely possible to have a reasoned discussion re immigration policy, though not if the starting point is concern about which way immigrants will vote after they become citizens. But shouldn't the starting point of such a discussion be an analysis of the actual effects of immigration on our society? Because an awful lot of people who are trying to restrict immigration seem to take it as a baseline and unexamined principle that immigration has been bad for the country over the last little while, whereas I believe the actual evidence is to the contrary. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#27 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:21 pm

Bob78164 wrote: Because an awful lot of people who are trying to restrict immigration seem to take it as a baseline and unexamined principle that immigration has been bad for the country over the last little while, whereas I believe the actual evidence is to the contrary. --Bob
It's far too easy to formulate policy when you think all the illegal immigrants are Hispanic gang bangers and drug dealers and Islamic terrorists.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#28 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:46 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Bob78164 wrote: Because an awful lot of people who are trying to restrict immigration seem to take it as a baseline and unexamined principle that immigration has been bad for the country over the last little while, whereas I believe the actual evidence is to the contrary. --Bob
It's far too easy to formulate policy when you think all the illegal immigrants are Hispanic gang bangers and drug dealers and Islamic terrorists.
You know, it's very tiring to hear your bigotry as an answer to everything. People are very much aware that not all illegal immigrants are bad hombres. However, some of them are. Using terms you can relate to: If we can prevent just one murderer who kills a child from entering this country, it will be worth it. ARE YOU NOT CONCERNED WITH OUR CHILDREN'S SAFETY!!! HAVE YOU NO COMPASSION?????

Most of us are intelligent enough to understand that not every illegal immigrant is a violent criminal. But, in truth, they are all criminals by definition, and because our government has been so negligent in letting so many of them in, we need to do something. And the FIRST thing we need to do is to ensure, the best we can, that we don't let any more of them in: Secure our borders. Most democrats were for this idea until it became a rallying issue for them.

It does not help when people like you think everyone who has a different solution to propose is as bigotted as you are. Sure, some of these people are here by no fault of their own. But it is not MY fault that they are here under their current status. I want an equitable solution that will work for ME (not having to pay for them), for them (A permanent legal status of one kind or another) and for the millions of other people who are trying to enter and become citizens of this country in the correct, legal way. Is that too much to ask? Or am I a ra**ist?
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#29 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:49 pm

I think it's entirely possible to have a reasoned discussion re immigration policy, though not if the starting point is concern about which way immigrants will vote after they become citizens.
Tell that to the democrats. That is the only reason that congress has not compromised on this issue. They want total amnesty as soon as possible, and the votes that go with it.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#30 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:24 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: It does not help when people like you think everyone who has a different solution to propose is as bigotted as you are.
Not everyone who "has a different solution" to propose is bigoted. But a lot of them are, either because they don't like or have preconceptions about dark skinned people of various ethnicities, or because they think it's good politics to act in that way. You seem to have bought into the idea that you are the victim of prejudice in some way because you can't always run roughshod over minorities the way your parents and grandparents could, which explains your claims about my bigotry (right wingers have loads of fun trying to portray themselves as the greatest victims of prejudice in the world today).

Every single time you ignore facts and evidence in favor of preconceptions and political grandstanding, you are demonstrating your prejudice. Bob Numbers and I have presented evidence to refute your claims on numerous occasions and you ignore them in favor of fallacious arguments.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#31 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:27 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
I think it's entirely possible to have a reasoned discussion re immigration policy, though not if the starting point is concern about which way immigrants will vote after they become citizens.
Tell that to the democrats. That is the only reason that congress has not compromised on this issue. They want total amnesty as soon as possible, and the votes that go with it.
This time around it's Republican hard liners and Trump (who seems to change his mind from one minute to the next) who are the stumbling block.

The Republican Congress has showed no inclination whatsoever to compromise with Democrats in the past year, even to the extent of letting them participate in the formal debating process.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#32 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:45 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: It does not help when people like you think everyone who has a different solution to propose is as bigotted as you are.
Not everyone who "has a different solution" to propose is bigoted. But a lot of them are, either because they don't like or have preconceptions about dark skinned people of various ethnicities, or because they think it's good politics to act in that way. You seem to have bought into the idea that you are the victim of prejudice in some way because you can't always run roughshod over minorities the way your parents and grandparents could, which explains your claims about my bigotry (right wingers have loads of fun trying to portray themselves as the greatest victims of prejudice in the world today).

Every single time you ignore facts and evidence in favor of preconceptions and political grandstanding, you are demonstrating your prejudice. Bob Numbers and I have presented evidence to refute your claims on numerous occasions and you ignore them in favor of fallacious arguments.
Right, SSS. It's my whole purpose in life to run roughshod over minorities. And I'm so frustrated that I can't do it like my grandparents did. They never taught me what running roughshod is. Well, at least I have my white privilege.
You're amazing, SSS. You keep doing it, but I don't think you have any clue. Every word you write about me validates my confidence in my political beliefs.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#33 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:03 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote: Every word you write about me validates my confidence in my political beliefs.
Ignorance is bliss.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#34 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:23 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: Every word you write about me validates my confidence in my political beliefs.
Ignorance is bliss.
You must be in nirvana.
Your friendly neighborhood racist. On the waiting list to be a nazi. Designated an honorary 'snowflake'. Trolled by the very best, as well as by BJ. Always typical, unlike others.., Fulminator, Hopelessly in the tank for trump... inappropriate... Flocking himself... Probably a tucking sexist, too... All thought comes from the right wing noise machine(TM)... A clear and present threat to The Future Of Our Democracy.. Doesn't understand anything... Made the trump apologist and enabler playoffs... Heathen bastard... Knows nothing about history... Liar.... don't know much about statistics and polling... Nothing at all about biology... Ignorant Bigot... Potential Future Pariah... Big Nerd... Spiraling, Anti-Trans Bigot.. A Lunatic AND a Bigot.. Very Ignorant of the World in General... Sounds deranged... Fake Christian... Weird... has the mind of a child... has paranoid delusions... Simpleton

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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#35 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:31 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: Every word you write about me validates my confidence in my political beliefs.
Ignorance is bliss.
You must be in nirvana.
No, that was Kurt Cobain.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#36 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:54 am

Bob Numbers and I have presented evidence to refute your claims on numerous occasions and you ignore them in favor of fallacious arguments.
Right, SSS. Let's take one instance. You claim that either I am, or that half the population of this country is convinced that all illegal immigrants are ' Hispanic gang bangers and drug dealers and Islamic terrorists.' Where is the evidence that supports this claim? It sounds like a fallacious argument to me. In fact, I know it is a fallacious statement.

What my concern, and coincidentally, President trump's, is that we are both A) allowing many people to enter this country illegally, without knowing whether they intend harm, whether they are bringing diseases with them, whether they are bringing drugs or weapons etc, and B) Basing our visa system on a random lottery which has the same problems.

Many of us deplorables want to change that and make sure we know who enters this country, what their general character is, and whether they are of good health and if they can make a positive contribution to this country and culture. For this "controversial" position, we are labeled whatever epithet comes to mind first by people like you. Aside from the fact that this leftist trait, (which has been illustrated by you in this discussion) is one of the main reasons why trump is president, it is also the reason that it is difficult, if not impossible, to have a reasoned discussion with many liberals, of which you are a member. If you want to have a reasoned discussion, explain to me what the benefit of our current immigration policies are to me, as a citizen of this country, instead of impugning my character.

You want evidence?

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... -born-stu/

So, I anticipate you will be able to discount this evidence in your mind by citing the source as being politically motivated. I know I do that as well when you present me with your 'evidence'. We can go back and forth finding numbers and sources that support our positions. As Mark Twain put it: "There are lies, damned lies and statistics." Anyone can find numbers that support their positions, especially if they ignore the numbers that don't.

What I'm saying is that in this instance, common sense says that it would be a whole lot better for the people who live here if we limit the people who come here to those that we know, as best we can, will contribute in a positive way and don't wish to harm anyone. What we do now, and what the democrats want does not do that, in my opinion. And what trump is proposing is better than what we do now.

So call me your names and tell me I get all my ideas from hannity.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#37 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:13 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: You want evidence?

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... -born-stu/
I had never heard of the Crime Prevention Research Center, but I looked them up and, to no surprise, they are about as right wing as you get. And the Washington Times isn't exactly a middle-of-the-road publication either. Their "statistics" fly in the face of virtually every other study I've seen. It's no surprise that when the Washington Times, Breitbart, Fox, or any other right wing group releases "statistics" bolstering their case about crime or guns, those statistics, which can't be replicated elsewhere, come from the Crime Prevention Research Center.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-pr ... ch-center/

https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2015/ ... -sc/204052

Yes, immigrants do commit crime. But, by your reasoning, we'd be far better off increasing our enforcement efforts against native born Americans, who are the ones most likely to be criminals rather than immigrants.
Common sense says that it would be a whole lot better for the people who live here if we limit the people who come here to those that we know, as best we can, will contribute in a positive way and don't wish to harm anyone.
And in practice, that almost invariably tends to be people from the "right"; i.e., white European countries.

I don't know what your ethnicity is Flock, and I don't really care, but I know that I and a very large number of other Americans, none of whom have criminals in our family trees, would not be in this country today if your approach to immigration had been in effect 100-200 years ago.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#38 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:21 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: You want evidence?

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... -born-stu/
I had never heard of the Crime Prevention Research Center, but I looked them up and, to no surprise, they are about as right wing as you get. And the Washington Times isn't exactly a middle-of-the-road publication either. Their "statistics" fly in the face of virtually every other study I've seen. It's no surprise that when the Washington Times, Breitbart, Fox, or any other right wing group releases "statistics" bolstering their case about crime or guns, those statistics, which can't be replicated elsewhere, come from the Crime Prevention Research Center.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-pr ... ch-center/

https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2015/ ... -sc/204052

Yes, immigrants do commit crime. But, by your reasoning, we'd be far better off increasing our enforcement efforts against native born Americans, who are the ones most likely to be criminals rather than immigrants.
Common sense says that it would be a whole lot better for the people who live here if we limit the people who come here to those that we know, as best we can, will contribute in a positive way and don't wish to harm anyone.
And in practice, that almost invariably tends to be people from the "right"; i.e., white European countries.

I don't know what your ethnicity is Flock, and I don't really care, but I know that I and a very large number of other Americans, none of whom have criminals in our family trees, would not be in this country today if your approach to immigration had been in effect 100-200 years ago.
I am so glad you read my post. I didn't think it would make any difference, and you proved me right.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#39 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:18 pm

Bob78164 wrote:There's a simpler way to destroy America. Stop people from voting.

That's what Scott Walker is doing. There are a couple of vacancies in the Wisconsin Legislature. It seems pretty clear that Wisconsin law requires special elections to fill them because they occurred before the second Tuesday in May of an election year. But Governor Scott Walker is refusing to call elections, probably because he's afraid Democrats will flip the seats. If this decision stands, the people of those districts will be without representation in one house of the Wisconsin Legislature for more than a year, until January 2019. --Bob
A judge in Wisconsin -- one who was appointed by Governor Walker -- has ruled that the Governor must call special elections by the end of next week. She called his construction of the relevant statutes "absurd" (a judgment I agree with). In essence, Walker read the statute to require a prompt special election if a vacancy occurs before May of 2018 (an election year), but to allow him to leave the seat vacant for a year if the vacancy occurs in 2017. Ridiculous is another word that leaps to mind. --Bob
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#40 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:48 am

And now Walker wants to change the law so that he doesn't have to allow those people their representation after all. --Bob
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#41 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:43 pm

Republican opposition to democracy has collapsed in Wisconsin. The election will be held in June, with a May primary if necessary. --Bob
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#42 Post by jarnon » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:20 pm

After reading Bob's post, I saw this headline on FB:

Judge Mark Walker orders Gov. Scott, Cabinet to create system to restore felons’ voting rights

I thought WTF? Gov. Walker's own family is ruling against him? Turns out the headline was about a Federal judge in Tallahassee and Florida Gov. Rick Scott.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#43 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:22 pm

Just an observation on bob-tels rants.

Gov Walker said back in January that if he called the elections, the earliest they could be held would be next month, April. He said it made no sense to spend the money for these elections because whomever is elected would not be able to vote for anything until November, when they would have to run for election anyway. Looking at the Wisconsin State Legislature schedule, which anyone, even bob-tel, can do, it looks like he is correct. There is no floor time on the schedule for the State Legislature, except for two days in May which is for Governor vetos, for the rest of the year. Or maybe I am reading it wrong. Can't be that sensible.

So I guess he is threatening the whole concept of democracy! (Which, by the way, is the same narrative in several of the stories that come up when you search on this subject). Thanks for the sensationalised fake news info, bob-tel.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#44 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:50 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:Just an observation on bob-tels rants.

Gov Walker said back in January that if he called the elections, the earliest they could be held would be next month, April. He said it made no sense to spend the money for these elections because whomever is elected would not be able to vote for anything until November, when they would have to run for election anyway. Looking at the Wisconsin State Legislature schedule, which anyone, even bob-tel, can do, it looks like he is correct. There is no floor time on the schedule for the State Legislature, except for two days in May which is for Governor vetos, for the rest of the year. Or maybe I am reading it wrong. Can't be that sensible.

So I guess he is threatening the whole concept of democracy! (Which, by the way, is the same narrative in several of the stories that come up when you search on this subject). Thanks for the sensationalised fake news info, bob-tel.
He is threatening democracy, for several reasons.

First, and simplest, the law simply didn't give him that discretion. Three different judges, at least one of whom Governor Walker actually appointed, have now told him that. When a government official ignores the law (as Roy Moore and Donny routinely do), you have a direct threat to the rule of law. And if he'd called the elections when he should have, when the vacancies first came into existence, they could have coincided with the primary elections already on schedule.

Second, Legislatures, including the Wisconsin Legislature, are sometimes called into sessions in addition to their regular session. When that happens, the people of those districts are entitled to be represented.

Third, it's quite obvious that the reason Walker didn't want to call these elections is that, in light of what happened in the earlier Wisconsin special election, he was afraid that the voters would choose Democrats. In other words, his clear intent was to flock the democratic process.

Fourth, elected representatives have jobs to do on behalf of their constituents, such as helping them to obtain state services, even when the Legislature isn't in session. --Bob
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#45 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:54 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Second, Legislatures, including the Wisconsin Legislature, are sometimes called into sessions in addition to their regular session. When that happens, the people of those districts are entitled to be represented.
And Walker tried to call the Wisconsin legislature into a special session for the express purpose of passing a law overturning the court decision.

The hypocrisy here is overwhelming.
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#46 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:41 am

You win some; you lose some. A federal judge in Michigan refused to require the state to hold a special election to replace John Conyers (Michigan law gives the governor more leeway than Wisconsin law does). So, that largely black district will go without representation for almost entire year. By an extremely odd coincidence, six years ago, in a suburban Republican district, that same governor ordered a special election right away.

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/ar ... ional-seat

You can count on Republicans to try to game the system whenever and wherever they can while screaming about non-existent voter fraud by Democrats.
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jarnon
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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#47 Post by jarnon » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:16 pm

Слава Україні!
עם ישראל חי

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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#48 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:17 pm

When a government official ignores the law (as Roy Moore and Donny routinely do), you have a direct threat to the rule of law.
Where was your outrage, bob-tel, when Obama ignored the law and the US Constitution on several occasions? Oh, you don't know what I'm talking about? Look it up for yourself. And spare me the weaselly justifications for it. He did exactly what you're accusing Walker of doing, ignoring the law and choosing which laws to enforce and which not, but I didn't see you lamenting about the future of democracy then. I'm not arguing that Walker is right, but your hypocrisy is burning bright.
Your friendly neighborhood racist. On the waiting list to be a nazi. Designated an honorary 'snowflake'. Trolled by the very best, as well as by BJ. Always typical, unlike others.., Fulminator, Hopelessly in the tank for trump... inappropriate... Flocking himself... Probably a tucking sexist, too... All thought comes from the right wing noise machine(TM)... A clear and present threat to The Future Of Our Democracy.. Doesn't understand anything... Made the trump apologist and enabler playoffs... Heathen bastard... Knows nothing about history... Liar.... don't know much about statistics and polling... Nothing at all about biology... Ignorant Bigot... Potential Future Pariah... Big Nerd... Spiraling, Anti-Trans Bigot.. A Lunatic AND a Bigot.. Very Ignorant of the World in General... Sounds deranged... Fake Christian... Weird... has the mind of a child... has paranoid delusions... Simpleton

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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#49 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:41 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
When a government official ignores the law (as Roy Moore and Donny routinely do), you have a direct threat to the rule of law.
Where was your outrage, bob-tel, when Obama ignored the law and the US Constitution on several occasions? Oh, you don't know what I'm talking about? Look it up for yourself. And spare me the weaselly justifications for it. He did exactly what you're accusing Walker of doing, ignoring the law and choosing which laws to enforce and which not, but I didn't see you lamenting about the future of democracy then. I'm not arguing that Walker is right, but your hypocrisy is burning bright.
It's obvious that you don't know a flocking thing about the law.

The Constitution means what the courts tell us it means, not what you want it to mean. At most, President Obama took arguable positions on open issues and on some of them, the courts that decided the issue disagreed with him. Every President does that. Walker's position wasn't remotely arguable. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Plan to Destroy America

#50 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:38 am

Scott Walker is already having a hissy fit about this result.
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