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Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland. Broward County. Shooter is stiil at large. Reported 20 injured but one student said she saw a pile of dead bodies.

There's a suspect in custody.

Senator Nelson confirms there are "a number" of fatalities.

Marjory Stoneman Douglas lived until age 108, working until nearly the end of her life for Everglades restoration. Since the community is at the edge of the Everglades, that was an appropriate name for the school.

The Washington Post is reporting at least 17 dead. --Bob

Oh, by the way, Congressional Republicans have been advancing a bill that would force all states to honor concealed carry licenses issued by any state. So California, Sandy Hook, and Brouward County would lose the ability to protect their own citizens by having their states impose their own requirements on people who want to carry guns.

I get that in the current political atmosphere, Congressional Republicans have concluded that their own jobs are more important to them than the lives of our kids. But I don't think it's asking too much of them to at least avoid making the problem worse. --Bob

Bob78164 wrote:Oh, by the way, Congressional Republicans have been advancing a bill that would force all states to honor concealed carry licenses issued by any state. So California, Sandy Hook, and Brouward County would lose the ability to protect their own citizens by having their states impose their own requirements on people who want to carry guns.

One would think that Republicans, who are big on "state's rights," would oppose this. But apparently, that only applies when "forcing" a state like Alabama to go along with Massachusetts' views on gay marriage or some similar issue. But attempts by California or Florida to protect their citizens don't matter, whether it's tougher gun licensing laws or allowing insurance companies to peddle substandard policies in any state they want. As with all talismanic phrases uttered by conservatives like "original intent," these maxims only apply when they are used by conservatives.

Bob78164 wrote: But I don't think it's asking too much of them to at least avoid making the problem worse. --Bob

Not withstanding the fact I agree with you on the States' Rights issue, but how would allowing C&C holders from other states to carry in your state, or any state, make "the problem" worse? What is the problem and how have C&C holders made it worse?

This comes from the Anti-Defamation League website, so it doesn't carry the same weight as from a more established news organization but:

A spokesperson for the white supremacist group Republic of Florida (ROF) told the Anti-Defamation League on Thursday, February 15, that Nikolas Cruz, the man charged with the previous day’s deadly shooting spree at a Parkland, Florida, high school, was associated with his group. After self-described ROF members claimed on the discussion forum 4chan that Cruz had also been a member, the Anti-Defamation League called the ROF hotline and spoke with an ROF member who identified himself as Jordan Jereb.

Jereb, based in Tallahassee, is believed to be the leader of ROF. In 2016, he was arrested on charges of threatening a staffer in the office of Florida Governor Rick Scott because he was allegedly angry at the staffer’s son. Jereb said that Cruz was associated with ROF, having been “brought up” by another membe. Jereb added that Cruz had participated in one or more ROF training exercises in the Tallahassee area, carpooling with other ROF members from south Florida.

ROF has members in north and south Florida. The alt right white supremacist group borrows paramilitary concepts from the anti-government extremist militia movement (not itself a white supremacist movement). ROF describes itself as a “white civil rights organization fighting for white identitarian politics” and seeks to create a “white ethnostate” in Florida. Most ROF members are young and the group itself is only a few years old. Jereb added that ROF had not ordered or wanted Cruz to do anything like the school shooting.

https://www.adl.org/blog/florida-white- ... kolas-cruz

Can you imagine the reaction from the usual right wing sources if the shooter were (A) Muslim, (B) a recent immigrant, illegal or otherwise, or (C) both. But don't expect much of a response here.

BackInTex wrote:

Bob78164 wrote: But I don't think it's asking too much of them to at least avoid making the problem worse. --Bob

Not withstanding the fact I agree with you on the States' Rights issue, but how would allowing C&C holders from other states to carry in your state, or any state, make "the problem" worse? What is the problem and how have C&C holders made it worse?

California (through its elected representatives) has concluded that easy availability of guns (as by having them on one's person) exacerbates gun violence. I agree with that conclusion. --Bob

Bob78164 wrote:

BackInTex wrote:

Bob78164 wrote: But I don't think it's asking too much of them to at least avoid making the problem worse. --Bob

Not withstanding the fact I agree with you on the States' Rights issue, but how would allowing C&C holders from other states to carry in your state, or any state, make "the problem" worse? What is the problem and how have C&C holders made it worse?

California (through its elected representatives) has concluded that easy availability of guns (as by having them on one's person) exacerbates gun violence. I agree with that conclusion. --Bob

Chicago disagrees.

BackInTex wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:

BackInTex wrote:
Not withstanding the fact I agree with you on the States' Rights issue, but how would allowing C&C holders from other states to carry in your state, or any state, make "the problem" worse? What is the problem and how have C&C holders made it worse?

California (through its elected representatives) has concluded that easy availability of guns (as by having them on one's person) exacerbates gun violence. I agree with that conclusion. --Bob

Chicago disagrees.

Are you referring to the debunked meme claiming that Chicago has strict gun control laws? --Bob

Bob78164 wrote:

BackInTex wrote:

Bob78164 wrote:California (through its elected representatives) has concluded that easy availability of guns (as by having them on one's person) exacerbates gun violence. I agree with that conclusion. --Bob

Chicago disagrees.

Are you referring to the debunked meme claiming that Chicago has strict gun control laws? --Bob

You can't debunk something that is true. I know you'll try.

here is a link trying on one hand to debunk, then making the following statement:

Seven states receive higher grades than Illinois in the latest Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence ratings.

7th out of 50. That's a pretty good score.

BackInTex wrote:
7th out of 50. That's a pretty good score.

Well, if you had read the article instead of just the clip in Politifact, you would have noted that while Illinois (the state, not the city of Chicago) had the eighth "best" score in terms of gun law restrictions, it also had the 39th highest gun death rank. That's a pretty good score. Some other states.

Gun Laws Gun Deaths
California: 1 43
Connecticut: 2 46
New Jersey: 3 45
Massachusetts: 4 50
New York: 5 48
Hawaii: 7 49

Mississippi: 50 5
Wyoming: 45 4
Alaska: 44 1
Louisiana: 43 2
Alabama: 37 3
Missouri: 48 9

Florida: 25 25

Notice a pattern here?

silverscreenselect wrote:

BackInTex wrote:
7th out of 50. That's a pretty good score.

Well, if you had read the article instead of just the clip in Politifact, you would have noted that while Illinois (the state, not the city of Chicago) had the eighth "best" score in terms of gun law restrictions, it also had the 39th highest gun death rank. That's a pretty good score. Some other states.

Gun Laws Gun Deaths
California: 1 43
Connecticut: 2 46
New Jersey: 3 45
Massachusetts: 4 50
New York: 5 48
Hawaii: 7 49

Mississippi: 50 5
Wyoming: 45 4
Alaska: 44 1
Louisiana: 43 2
Alabama: 37 3
Missouri: 48 9

Florida: 25 25

Notice a pattern here?

How many of the deaths are suicide?
And what are the numbers? They don't make sense. Alaska had 1 gun death? That number is wrong.

Edit: Never mind, those are rankings.

BackInTex wrote: How many of the deaths are suicide?

I'm sure it's quite a comfort for the relatives of someone who blows his brains out that at least he wasn't murdered.

silverscreenselect wrote:

BackInTex wrote: How many of the deaths are suicide?

I'm sure it's quite a comfort for the relatives of someone who blows his brains out that at least he wasn't murdered.

If you can't support gun control without throwing in deaths that are intentionally self inflicted, you've lost the debate.

BackInTex wrote:

silverscreenselect wrote:

BackInTex wrote: How many of the deaths are suicide?

I'm sure it's quite a comfort for the relatives of someone who blows his brains out that at least he wasn't murdered.

If you can't support gun control without throwing in deaths that are intentionally self inflicted, you've lost the debate.

No, I've only "lost" the debate with people like you with whom I never could have won the debate under any circumstances. Suicides by gunfire are just as dead as homicide or accident victims. And many of them would still be alive if they hadn't had easy access to a gun at a time when they were feeling particularly depressed.

A study by the Harvard School of Public Health of all 50 U.S. states reveals a powerful link between rates of firearm ownership and suicides. Based on a survey of American households conducted in 2002, HSPH Assistant Professor of Health Policy and Management Matthew Miller, Research Associate Deborah Azrael, and colleagues at the School’s Injury Control Research Center (ICRC), found that in states where guns were prevalent—as in Wyoming, where 63 percent of households reported owning guns—rates of suicide were higher. The inverse was also true: where gun ownership was less common, suicide rates were also lower.

The lesson? Many lives would likely be saved if people disposed of their firearms, kept them locked away, or stored them outside the home. Says HSPH Professor of Health Policy David Hemenway, the ICRC’s director: “Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.” But few can survive a gun blast.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/magaz ... d-suicide/

Bob78164 wrote:Oh, by the way, Congressional Republicans have been advancing a bill that would force all states to honor concealed carry licenses issued by any state. So California, Sandy Hook, and Brouward County would lose the ability to protect their own citizens by having their states impose their own requirements on people who want to carry guns.

I get that in the current political atmosphere, Congressional Republicans have concluded that their own jobs are more important to them than the lives of our kids. But I don't think it's asking too much of them to at least avoid making the problem worse. --Bob

We could officially rename every school in America "Uterus". Maybe then, Republican politicians would start caring about all of the innocent lives dying inside of them. Just saying...

SSS>>>No, I've only "lost" the debate with people like you with whom I never could have won the debate under any circumstances. Suicides by gunfire are just as dead as homicide or accident victims. And many of them would still be alive if they hadn't had easy access to a gun at a time when they were feeling particularly depressed.<<<

When you immediately jump to all firearm suicides after a mass shooting, you make the problem unsolveable. Purposely, I think. Obviously, you continue have a tremendous problem with granularity. I guess when the only tool you have in your rhetorical tool box is a broad brush, everything looks like a flat, smooth wall. Simply put, suicides by firearm and mass school shootings are not the same thing.

I know you have a wet dream where all firearms disappear, but I have never figured out who you are going to send door to door in Texas to search for weapons. I doubt you will volunteer. I don't think Oberlin graduates are gonna do it for you. Pajama Boy? Probably not.

http://fox61.com/2018/02/16/deputies-ca ... ince-2010/

It has been reported that the shooter has had numerous contacts with law enforcement and been reported at least twice as a possible school shooter.

All we hear about is big data and how it is going to change the world. Our panopticon state should at least be able to do Big Data well. When somebody starts to show up on multiple data points as a potential school shooter, it might be time to take a closer look at that individual.

Until government can at least get that minor use of big data right, I would not get too excited (or worried, as the case might be) about the possibility of them going after all firearms.

Spock wrote: When you immediately jump to all firearm suicides after a mass shooting, you make the problem unsolveable. Purposely, I think. Obviously, you continue have a tremendous problem with granularity. I guess when the only tool you have in your rhetorical tool box is a broad brush, everything looks like a flat, smooth wall. Simply put, suicides by firearm and mass school shootings are not the same thing.

No, it's the way the gun lobby always tries to change the subject. BiT brought up the statistic about Illinois' gun laws, and I tried to point out a correlation between strict gun laws and gun deaths. He then changed the subject to gun suicides.

The gun lobby insists on an all-or-nothing approach to legislation that, if applied to anything else other than restricting firearms in some way, would leave us without any criminal laws whatsoever.

silverscreenselect wrote: No, it's the way the gun lobby always tries to change the subject. BiT brought up the statistic about Illinois' gun laws, and I tried to point out a correlation between strict gun laws and gun deaths. He then changed the subject to gun suicides.

I did not change the subject. I criticized/disagreed, rightly so, with the statistics you used to support your position.

BackInTex wrote:

silverscreenselect wrote: No, it's the way the gun lobby always tries to change the subject. BiT brought up the statistic about Illinois' gun laws, and I tried to point out a correlation between strict gun laws and gun deaths. He then changed the subject to gun suicides.

I did not change the subject. I criticized/disagreed, rightly so, with the statistics you used to support your position.

Okay, what statistics can you show that proves strict gun laws do not also prevent gun suicides?

From Johns Hopkins: Gun homicides in Connecticut dropped by 40% when the state toughened its gun laws. Gun homicides in Missouri increased by 25% when it repealed its handgun license law. In addition, suicide by gun dropped in Connecticut by 15.4% and suicide by gun increased in Missouri by 16.1%. --Bob

silverscreenselect wrote:This comes from the Anti-Defamation League website, so it doesn't carry the same weight as from a more established news organization but:

A spokesperson for the white supremacist group Republic of Florida (ROF) told the Anti-Defamation League on Thursday, February 15, that Nikolas Cruz, the man charged with the previous day’s deadly shooting spree at a Parkland, Florida, high school, was associated with his group. After self-described ROF members claimed on the discussion forum 4chan that Cruz had also been a member, the Anti-Defamation League called the ROF hotline and spoke with an ROF member who identified himself as Jordan Jereb.

Jereb, based in Tallahassee, is believed to be the leader of ROF. In 2016, he was arrested on charges of threatening a staffer in the office of Florida Governor Rick Scott because he was allegedly angry at the staffer’s son. Jereb said that Cruz was associated with ROF, having been “brought up” by another membe. Jereb added that Cruz had participated in one or more ROF training exercises in the Tallahassee area, carpooling with other ROF members from south Florida.

ROF has members in north and south Florida. The alt right white supremacist group borrows paramilitary concepts from the anti-government extremist militia movement (not itself a white supremacist movement). ROF describes itself as a “white civil rights organization fighting for white identitarian politics” and seeks to create a “white ethnostate” in Florida. Most ROF members are young and the group itself is only a few years old. Jereb added that ROF had not ordered or wanted Cruz to do anything like the school shooting.

https://www.adl.org/blog/florida-white- ... kolas-cruz

Can you imagine the reaction from the usual right wing sources if the shooter were (A) Muslim, (B) a recent immigrant, illegal or otherwise, or (C) both. But don't expect much of a response here.

Maybe you should self-impose a 72 hour waiting limit before giddily posting lies from a white supremacist type who apparently has 12 people in his organization.

BTW, congrats on waiting 45 seconds after the shooting stopped before jumping to "Right-wingers hate Muslims, Immigrants etc-Blah Blah Blah". The wait must have been tough on you.