VDH on our most Dystopian State

The forum for general posting. Come join the madness. :)
Message
Author
Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

VDH on our most Dystopian State

#1 Post by Spock » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:54 pm

2 Recent columns from VDH

https://amgreatness.com/2018/02/19/unde ... rnia-mind/

Agree with him or not, the man knows California as a whole better than anyone else. From Stanford and Silicon Valley to the rural slums of the Central Valley.

Pull Quote>>>"The California solution is always the same: the law-abiding must adjust to the non-law-abiding."<<<

https://www.investors.com/politics/colu ... alifornia/

Pull Quote>>>"In other words, some of the people most eager to offer green sermons to others live in one of the most artificial and ecologically fragile environments on the planet."<<<<

>>>"Adopt a little humility in admitting that most of the state is an artificial construct of affluent millions living in a delicate ecosystem where nature never intended them to cluster — impossible without constant multibillion-dollar investments in water, agriculture, housing and transportation."<<<

User avatar
Bob Juch
Posts: 26427
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:58 am
Location: Oro Valley, Arizona
Contact:

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#2 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:04 pm

Spock wrote:2 Recent columns from VDH

https://amgreatness.com/2018/02/19/unde ... rnia-mind/

Agree with him or not, the man knows California as a whole better than anyone else. From Stanford and Silicon Valley to the rural slums of the Central Valley.

Pull Quote>>>"The California solution is always the same: the law-abiding must adjust to the non-law-abiding."<<<

https://www.investors.com/politics/colu ... alifornia/

Pull Quote>>>"In other words, some of the people most eager to offer green sermons to others live in one of the most artificial and ecologically fragile environments on the planet."<<<<

>>>"Adopt a little humility in admitting that most of the state is an artificial construct of affluent millions living in a delicate ecosystem where nature never intended them to cluster — impossible without constant multibillion-dollar investments in water, agriculture, housing and transportation."<<<
What evidence do you have that he knows California as a whole better than anyone else?
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)

Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.

Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.

User avatar
silverscreenselect
Posts: 23175
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#3 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:19 pm

Bob Juch wrote: What evidence do you have that he knows California as a whole better than anyone else?
He tells Spock the things Spock wants to hear about California.
Check out our website: http://www.silverscreenvideos.com

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#4 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:50 pm

The place is so hellish it's a pozzlement that people and jobs aren't fleeing even faster. We'll obviously be a ghost state within decades, if not years.

Wait. What's that you say? The population is continuing to grow and California leads the nation in business start-ups?

It's almost as if the facts on the ground contradict Republican dogma. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Beebs52
Queen of Wack
Posts: 14891
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:38 am
Location: Location.Location.Location

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#5 Post by Beebs52 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:57 pm

Marijuana dispensaries don't count...
Well, then

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#6 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:43 pm

Beebs52 wrote:Marijuana dispensaries don't count...
Don't knock 'em till you've tried 'em. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
BackInTex
Posts: 12780
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:43 pm
Location: In Texas of course!

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#7 Post by BackInTex » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:12 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:Marijuana dispensaries don't count...
Don't knock 'em till you've tried 'em, or I'll sue you. --Bob
Fixed it for you.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#8 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:32 am

BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:Marijuana dispensaries don't count...
Don't knock 'em till you've tried 'em, or I'll sue you. --Bob
Fixed it for you.
Nah. None of them are my clients. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#9 Post by Spock » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:41 am

Bob78164 wrote:The place is so hellish it's a pozzlement that people and jobs aren't fleeing even faster. We'll obviously be a ghost state within decades, if not years.

Wait. What's that you say? The population is continuing to grow and California leads the nation in business start-ups?

It's almost as if the facts on the ground contradict Republican dogma. --Bob
Nobody disputes that the California private sector is booming, least of all VDH. Read the articles, as I am sure you didn't, he sings the praises of the California private sector.

I notice you said nothing about the metastisizing rural slums in the Central Valley.

Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#10 Post by Spock » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:46 am

Maybe somebody can help me with these quotes. Some of which I posted in the OP. It is one of those deals where it is right at the tip of my tongue.

They make me think of somebody, but I just can't put put a finger on it. I am not sure if it somebody from real life, or somebody that used to be here, or what. Help is appreciated.

>>>>"Coastal California is hilly, difficult to build on and prone to devastating earthquakes. It is semi-arid, without much of an aquifer. The life-giving watershed of the Sierra Nevada is more than 200 miles away.


In other words, some of the people most eager to offer green sermons to others live in one of the most artificial and ecologically fragile environments on the planet."<<<<

>>>"Learn how an entire culture is fed, housed and fueled before faulting those who address such needs.

Adopt a little humility in admitting that most of the state is an artificial construct of affluent millions living in a delicate ecosystem where nature never intended them to cluster -- impossible without constant multibillion-dollar investments in water, agriculture, housing and transportation.<<<<

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#11 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:53 am

Spock wrote:Maybe somebody can help me with these quotes. Some of which I posted in the OP. It is one of those deals where it is right at the tip of my tongue.

They make me think of somebody, but I just can't put put a finger on it. I am not sure if it somebody from real life, or somebody that used to be here, or what. Help is appreciated.

>>>>"Coastal California is hilly, difficult to build on and prone to devastating earthquakes. It is semi-arid, without much of an aquifer. The life-giving watershed of the Sierra Nevada is more than 200 miles away.


In other words, some of the people most eager to offer green sermons to others live in one of the most artificial and ecologically fragile environments on the planet."<<<<

>>>"Learn how an entire culture is fed, housed and fueled before faulting those who address such needs.

Adopt a little humility in admitting that most of the state is an artificial construct of affluent millions living in a delicate ecosystem where nature never intended them to cluster -- impossible without constant multibillion-dollar investments in water, agriculture, housing and transportation.<<<<
If you're saying California isn't perfect, no one disputes that. But calling us our most dystopian state (as compared to say, Mississippi) is quite a stretch.

And yes, I did read both articles you linked. You might note, by the way, that Secretary Clinton won at least one Congressional District in the Central Valley, so I think there are a number of Central Valley residents who are just fine with Democratic control of the government. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
silverscreenselect
Posts: 23175
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#12 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:04 pm

Spock wrote: I notice you said nothing about the metastisizing rural slums in the Central Valley.
You and Hansen see what you want to see.
Check out our website: http://www.silverscreenvideos.com

Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#13 Post by Spock » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:33 pm

BobJ>>>What evidence do you have that he knows California as a whole better than anyone else?<<<

I'll play that game. Do you have somebody else that even approaches him in having the whole of California ingrained into his very being?

On one hand, we have:

1) An almond farmer who has lived most of his life in the Central Valley who has found himself at the Ground Zero of illegal immigration and suddenly living in a rapidly metastisizing rural slum.

And on the other hand, we have:

2) A Hoover Institution academic who is intimately familiar with the "California Elite"/Silicon Valley/Urban California etc and used to analyzing information and trends and so forth.

Oh, wait a second, it is the same person. Game over, Thanks for playing.

User avatar
silverscreenselect
Posts: 23175
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#14 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:51 pm

Spock wrote:
Oh, wait a second, it is the same person. Game over, Thanks for playing.
Is this the same Victor Davis Hanson?

https://www.salon.com/2011/08/10/victor_davis_hanson/

Or this?

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/ar ... id/278026/

Or this?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/victor ... n-america/

Game over. Thanks for playing.
Check out our website: http://www.silverscreenvideos.com

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#15 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:19 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Spock wrote:
Oh, wait a second, it is the same person. Game over, Thanks for playing.
Is this the same Victor Davis Hanson?

https://www.salon.com/2011/08/10/victor_davis_hanson/

Or this?

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/ar ... id/278026/

Or this?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/victor ... n-america/

Game over. Thanks for playing.
Which brings me to another point. Spock has noted that I haven't responded to the statements about the conditions suffered by the poor in the Central Valley. That's true. I spend very little time in the Central Valley so I don't know how much of what he's saying is even true, much less representative of more general conditions in the Central Valley. And apparently unlike Victor Davis Hanson, I try not to express opinions without actually knowing what I'm talking about. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Bob Juch
Posts: 26427
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:58 am
Location: Oro Valley, Arizona
Contact:

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#16 Post by Bob Juch » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:20 pm

Spock wrote:BobJ>>>What evidence do you have that he knows California as a whole better than anyone else?<<<

I'll play that game. Do you have somebody else that even approaches him in having the whole of California ingrained into his very being?
Yes, Jerry Brown.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)

Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.

Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#17 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:25 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
Spock wrote:BobJ>>>What evidence do you have that he knows California as a whole better than anyone else?<<<

I'll play that game. Do you have somebody else that even approaches him in having the whole of California ingrained into his very being?
Yes, Jerry Brown.
Game, set, and match. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Beebs52
Queen of Wack
Posts: 14891
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:38 am
Location: Location.Location.Location

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#18 Post by Beebs52 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:50 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
Spock wrote:
Oh, wait a second, it is the same person. Game over, Thanks for playing.
Is this the same Victor Davis Hanson?

https://www.salon.com/2011/08/10/victor_davis_hanson/

Or this?

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/ar ... id/278026/

Or this?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/victor ... n-america/

Game over. Thanks for playing.
Which brings me to another point. Spock has noted that I haven't responded to the statements about the conditions suffered by the poor in the Central Valley. That's true . I spend very little time in the Central Valley so I don't know how much of what he's saying is even true, much less representative of more general conditions in the Central Valley. And apparently unlike Victor Davis Hanson, I try not to express opinions without actually knowing what I'm talking about. --Bob
I find the bolded statement interesting. Are you saying you don't express opinions without firsthand eyewitness information? Perhaps you misspoke.
Well, then

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#19 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:25 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
Is this the same Victor Davis Hanson?

https://www.salon.com/2011/08/10/victor_davis_hanson/

Or this?

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/ar ... id/278026/

Or this?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/victor ... n-america/

Game over. Thanks for playing.
Which brings me to another point. Spock has noted that I haven't responded to the statements about the conditions suffered by the poor in the Central Valley. That's true . I spend very little time in the Central Valley so I don't know how much of what he's saying is even true, much less representative of more general conditions in the Central Valley. And apparently unlike Victor Davis Hanson, I try not to express opinions without actually knowing what I'm talking about. --Bob
I find the bolded statement interesting. Are you saying you don't express opinions without firsthand eyewitness information? Perhaps you misspoke.
No, I'm willing to rely on sources that I consider reliable. I haven't seen stories in my usual sources on the alleged phenomenon Hanson is recounting. However, there is plenty of room in my mind for the possibility that it exists (whether to the extent Hanson is claiming or to a lesser extent) but is not being reported upon. So although I'm certainly not willing to accept Hanson's word for the existence or extent of that phenomenon, I'm also not willing to say that he's wrong about it. That leaves me silent on the question. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#20 Post by Spock » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:48 pm

Bob78164 wrote:The place is so hellish it's a pozzlement that people and jobs aren't fleeing even faster. We'll obviously be a ghost state within decades, if not years.

Wait. What's that you say? The population is continuing to grow and California leads the nation in business start-ups?

It's almost as if the facts on the ground contradict Republican dogma. --Bob
With thoughts of VDH and the classics dancing in my head, for some reason, the term "Hubris" is coming to mind.

Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#21 Post by Spock » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:39 am

Bob78164 wrote:The place is so hellish it's a pozzlement that people and jobs aren't fleeing even faster. We'll obviously be a ghost state within decades, if not years.

Wait. What's that you say? The population is continuing to grow and California leads the nation in business start-ups?

It's almost as if the facts on the ground contradict Republican dogma. --Bob
I don't know where Bob is getting his population estimates, but 2020 census projections indicate that California will not gain any seats. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/1 ... ortionment

Also the high cost of housing is leading to an exodus of middle class workers from the Bay Area.
https://www.aei.org/publication/san-fra ... tal-rates/

There is a lot of wealth effect from the Trump stock market in California right now. A month ago (or so) when the stock market had a couple of really bad days there was a lot of glee from many on the left.

The left should really be hoping that the Trump stock market doesn't crash or even have a sustained downturn. If the stock market catches the flu, places like California will be hurt a lot worse than places like Mississippi.

If you absolutely believe that the Trump rise is due to Obama and that Trump will smash the markets like a bull in a china shop and you haven't pulled most of your money out of the stock market by now-what are you waiting for?

User avatar
tlynn78
Posts: 8652
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:31 am
Location: Montana

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#22 Post by tlynn78 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:07 am

Beebs52 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
Is this the same Victor Davis Hanson?

https://www.salon.com/2011/08/10/victor_davis_hanson/

Or this?

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/ar ... id/278026/

Or this?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/victor ... n-america/

Game over. Thanks for playing.
Which brings me to another point. Spock has noted that I haven't responded to the statements about the conditions suffered by the poor in the Central Valley. That's true . I spend very little time in the Central Valley so I don't know how much of what he's saying is even true, much less representative of more general conditions in the Central Valley. And apparently unlike Victor Davis Hanson, I try not to express opinions without actually knowing what I'm talking about. --Bob
I find the bolded statement interesting. Are you saying you don't express opinions without firsthand eyewitness information? Perhaps you misspoke.
*snork* :lol:
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. -Ayn Rand
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#23 Post by Spock » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:09 pm

I find 2 things very interesting in this thread.

1) The Bob's and SSS automatically attack VDH, but don't have another guy comparable. Maybe as a farmer in the Central Valley, he has a lifetime of ingrained knowledge of California water projects and issues and so forth and the "Bob's" of California can't even begin to comprehend that that knowledge base exists.

I am open to reading other people with similar diverse life experiences-bring em on


2) I also note the quick response to any mention of California as dystopian is to point out that great wealth exists as if that argues against dystopia. I thought one of the tenets of liberalism is that income inequality is dystopian. There is probably no state that that has a wider gap between the rich and the poor.

When a state has 12% of the US population and 1/3 of the welfare recipients something dystopian is going on.


http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/new ... story.html

VDH has the "Bob's" of California perfectly figured out. They think they are forever insulated from the effects of their voting. It never crosses their mind that they might suddenly find themselves living cheek to jowl in a rapidly growing slum at the ground zero of illegal immigration.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bob>>" I spend very little time in the Central Valley so I don't know how much of what he's saying is even true, much less representative of more general conditions in the Central Valley. And apparently unlike Victor Davis Hanson, I try not to express opinions without actually knowing what I'm talking about. --Bob"<<<<<<<<<<<

I hear you, I bet you (and your peers) sometimes go for years without even thinking about the Central Valley and, much less, what effect your voting habits and the policies you espouse might have there.

User avatar
Bob Juch
Posts: 26427
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:58 am
Location: Oro Valley, Arizona
Contact:

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#24 Post by Bob Juch » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:49 pm

I'd like to see a citation from a government source showing that 1/3 of welfare recipients in the U.S. are in California.

Illegal immigrants can not receive welfare.

Without illegal immigrants, all those crops in the Central Valley are going to rot in the fields.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)

Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.

Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.

User avatar
Beebs52
Queen of Wack
Posts: 14891
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:38 am
Location: Location.Location.Location

Re: VDH on our most Dystopian State

#25 Post by Beebs52 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:26 am

Bob Juch wrote:I'd like to see a citation from a government source showing that 1/3 of welfare recipients in the U.S. are in California.

Illegal immigrants can not receive welfare.

Without illegal immigrants, all those crops in the Central Valley are going to rot in the fields.
This includes a source. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la ... story.html
Well, then

Post Reply