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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:01 pm 
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Trump now says there is a "substantial chance" preparations won't work out in time for that June summit. That's too bad; those tokens with Trump and "Supreme Leader" Kim on them could be collector's items some day.

I don't blame Trump for this whole thing falling apart. I do blame him for not understanding that every American president since the Reagan years could have had a similar meeting with Kim or his father if they had gone about it the way Trump has, namely, ask for nothing in advance and make concession after concession. Kim now has what he wants, implicit standing as the U.S.'s equal and a 2-3 month delay in any serious efforts to push nuclear containment while he builds his new test facility somewhere else.

For those who say I don't give Trump credit for anything, I'm about to prove you wrong however. He did prove himself a shrewd negotiator with the Chinese, helping out ZTE in exchange for Chinese help in moving his multimillion dollar Indonesia project along.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:23 pm 
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You can never be sure. Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize before any significant accomplishments. His main qualification was that he wasn’t George W. Bush.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:37 pm 
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jarnon wrote:
His main qualification was that he wasn’t George W. Bush.


Somehow, I don't think that approach is going to work for Trump.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:13 am 
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In the words of that esteemed statesman, Gomer Pyle: "Surprise, surprise, surprise."

Trump cancels North Korean Summit

Once again, Trump gets played by a foreign leader. And for those that say that liberals wanted this to fail, what upset me, and I'm sure many other liberals, wasn't the idea that Trump might come to a peace agreement with North Korea, but the fact that every right wing news outlet and, of course, Republican politicians and Trump himself were falling all over themselves patting themselves on the back from Day One. Diplomats who live in the real world pretty much predicted what would happen; the only question being whether Trump or Kim would find a reason to pull the plug.

Meanwhile, North Korea still has its nukes and several months of breathing room while it builds a replacement test site, and Kim has gained a lot of stature in diplomatic circles.

But Trump does have those nifty challenge coins he can sell on Ebay or in souvenir shops at Trump properties.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:16 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
In the words of that esteemed statesman, Gomer Pyle: "Surprise, surprise, surprise."

Trump cancels North Korean Summit

Once again, Trump gets played by a foreign leader. And for those that say that liberals wanted this to fail, what upset me, and I'm sure many other liberals, wasn't the idea that Trump might come to a peace agreement with North Korea, but the fact that every right wing news outlet and, of course, Republican politicians and Trump himself were falling all over themselves patting themselves on the back from Day One. Diplomats who live in the real world pretty much predicted what would happen; the only question being whether Trump or Kim would find a reason to pull the plug.

Meanwhile, North Korea still has its nukes and several months of breathing room while it builds a replacement test site, and Kim has gained a lot of stature in diplomatic circles.

But Trump does have those nifty challenge coins he can sell on Ebay or in souvenir shops at Trump properties.

You must be so happy. Are you planning a party?


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:18 am 
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Republican politicians and Trump himself were falling all over themselves patting themselves on the back from Day One.


In your mind they were. In the real world, most were cautiously optimistic.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:29 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
In the words of that esteemed statesman, Gomer Pyle: "Surprise, surprise, surprise."

Trump cancels North Korean Summit

Once again, Trump gets played by a foreign leader.


How did he get played? Did we give NK something? Maybe I missed it. They returned 3 folks being held prisoner. At the end of the day, if there is no summit, we are still in a net gain position.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:46 am 
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SSS:
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and Kim has gained a lot of stature in diplomatic circles.


Yeah, maybe he's slightly ahead of Hillary now. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:29 am 
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BackInTex wrote:
How did he get played? Did we give NK something? Maybe I missed it. They returned 3 folks being held prisoner. At the end of the day, if there is no summit, we are still in a net gain position.


Face, prestige, implicit acceptance as an equal nuclear power. Not to mention that the North Koreans can now spin a debacle on their part (the damage to their test facility) as a sign of their willingness to be reasonable in nuclear negotiations (as they rebuild the facility somewhere else). These are what Kim was looking for all along. That's why we refuse to "negotiate" with what we consider terrorists and rogue states (while we engage in back channel talks when needed), because we don't want to give them legitimacy. We just gave Kim a ton of legitimacy, as evidenced by that silly coin and all of Trump's blathering about how nice a guy he is. We did get three hostages back and that's good. But, if anything, Trump has made the U.S. negotiating posture in the future even more difficult than it was before. And Trump looks like even more of a fool than he did before.

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:59 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
How did he get played? Did we give NK something? Maybe I missed it. They returned 3 folks being held prisoner. At the end of the day, if there is no summit, we are still in a net gain position.


Face, prestige, implicit acceptance as an equal nuclear power. Not to mention that the North Koreans can now spin a debacle on their part (the damage to their test facility) as a sign of their willingness to be reasonable in nuclear negotiations (as they rebuild the facility somewhere else). These are what Kim was looking for all along. That's why we refuse to "negotiate" with what we consider terrorists and rogue states (while we engage in back channel talks when needed), because we don't want to give them legitimacy. We just gave Kim a ton of legitimacy, as evidenced by that silly coin and all of Trump's blathering about how nice a guy he is. We did get three hostages back and that's good. But, if anything, Trump has made the U.S. negotiating posture in the future even more difficult than it was before. And Trump looks like even more of a fool than he did before.
Trump's overture was sought for by South Korean President Moon, who was elected on a platform of engagement with the North. It's similar to Obama's policy towards Iran when moderate (by Iranian standards) Rohani was elected, and Cuba after a long stalemate. Diplomacy with rogue regimes usually fails, but IMHO it's still worth a try.


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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:34 am 
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Headlines from 2009

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feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive

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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:46 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:58 pm 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
Image


Housefly.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:40 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
How did he get played? Did we give NK something? Maybe I missed it. They returned 3 folks being held prisoner. At the end of the day, if there is no summit, we are still in a net gain position.


Face, prestige, implicit acceptance as an equal nuclear power. Not to mention that the North Koreans can now spin a debacle on their part (the damage to their test facility) as a sign of their willingness to be reasonable in nuclear negotiations (as they rebuild the facility somewhere else). These are what Kim was looking for all along. That's why we refuse to "negotiate" with what we consider terrorists and rogue states (while we engage in back channel talks when needed), because we don't want to give them legitimacy. We just gave Kim a ton of legitimacy, as evidenced by that silly coin and all of Trump's blathering about how nice a guy he is. We did get three hostages back and that's good. But, if anything, Trump has made the U.S. negotiating posture in the future even more difficult than it was before. And Trump looks like even more of a fool than he did before.


My head is spinning trying to comprehend the convoluted thinking in the above paragraph.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:53 am 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
How did he get played? Did we give NK something? Maybe I missed it. They returned 3 folks being held prisoner. At the end of the day, if there is no summit, we are still in a net gain position.


Face, prestige, implicit acceptance as an equal nuclear power. Not to mention that the North Koreans can now spin a debacle on their part (the damage to their test facility) as a sign of their willingness to be reasonable in nuclear negotiations (as they rebuild the facility somewhere else). These are what Kim was looking for all along. That's why we refuse to "negotiate" with what we consider terrorists and rogue states (while we engage in back channel talks when needed), because we don't want to give them legitimacy. We just gave Kim a ton of legitimacy, as evidenced by that silly coin and all of Trump's blathering about how nice a guy he is. We did get three hostages back and that's good. But, if anything, Trump has made the U.S. negotiating posture in the future even more difficult than it was before. And Trump looks like even more of a fool than he did before.


My head is spinning trying to comprehend the convoluted thinking in the above paragraph.


Diplomacy is a rather advanced subject. You won't find it discussed on Fox News a lot because it's a foreign concept to them.

Kim wanted credibility and recognition for his regime, along with some breathing room to rebuild his test facility. He got it, and he comes off as the good guy in this whole mess, while Trump is the one who cancelled the summit.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:56 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
and he comes off as the good guy in this whole mess,


Only to those who favor him above Trump.

Just let that sink in a bit.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:05 am 
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BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
and he comes off as the good guy in this whole mess,


Only to those who favor him above Trump.

Just let that sink in a bit.


Which, sadly, now includes a large portion of the world.

Just let that sink in a bit.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:14 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:

Face, prestige, implicit acceptance as an equal nuclear power. Not to mention that the North Koreans can now spin a debacle on their part (the damage to their test facility) as a sign of their willingness to be reasonable in nuclear negotiations (as they rebuild the facility somewhere else). These are what Kim was looking for all along. That's why we refuse to "negotiate" with what we consider terrorists and rogue states (while we engage in back channel talks when needed), because we don't want to give them legitimacy. We just gave Kim a ton of legitimacy, as evidenced by that silly coin and all of Trump's blathering about how nice a guy he is. We did get three hostages back and that's good. But, if anything, Trump has made the U.S. negotiating posture in the future even more difficult than it was before. And Trump looks like even more of a fool than he did before.


My head is spinning trying to comprehend the convoluted thinking in the above paragraph.


Diplomacy is a rather advanced subject. You won't find it discussed on Fox News a lot because it's a foreign concept to them.

Kim wanted credibility and recognition for his regime, along with some breathing room to rebuild his test facility. He got it, and he comes off as the good guy in this whole mess, while Trump is the one who cancelled the summit.


Oh, I stumbled upon yet another subject in which you are the world's foremost authority: diplomacy.
Why the hell aren't you the supreme leader of the universe by now since you claim to know everything about everything?

And for the thousandth time, I am fucking sick to death of your use of hannity, fox news, right-wing web sites etc... to try and deflect any disagreement with your viewpoints. I thought I had addressed this issue in a previous post, but I always wrongly assume you read them and comprehend them.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:16 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
and he comes off as the good guy in this whole mess,


Only to those who favor him above Trump.

Just let that sink in a bit.


Which, sadly, now includes a large portion of MY world.

Just let that sink in a bit.


Fixed it for ya.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:17 am 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Why the hell aren't you the supreme leader of the universe by now since you claim to know everything about everything?


I am not the expert on these matters. I do, unlike many on the right, including the President, listen to what the actual experts do have to say about these matters. And the reason I mention Fox a lot is because the President seems to use them as a reference quite a lot (as do a lot of other right wingers).

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:18 am 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote:

Only to those who favor him above Trump.

Just let that sink in a bit.


Which, sadly, now includes a large portion of MY world.

Just let that sink in a bit.


Fixed it for ya.


Sadly, I have to occupy the same planet that Donald Trump is making less safe every day.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:29 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:

Which, sadly, now includes a large portion of MY world.

Just let that sink in a bit.


Fixed it for ya.


Sadly, I have to occupy the same planet that Donald Trump is making less safe every day.


I prefer his type of diplomacy to that of sending billions of dollars in cash to a rogue regime in return for nothing. Or to that of doing nothing for 8 years while North Korea develops the nuclear technology to be a threat to the world.


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:42 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Why the hell aren't you the supreme leader of the universe by now since you claim to know everything about everything?


I am not the expert on these matters. I do, unlike many on the right, including the President, listen to what my 'experts' of choice do have to say about these matters. And the reason I mention Fox a lot is because the President seems to use them as a reference quite a lot (as do a lot of other right wingers).


Fixed it for you.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 8:50 am 
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flockofseagulls104 wrote:
I prefer his type of diplomacy to that of sending billions of dollars in cash to a rogue regime in return for nothing. .


In the case of Iran, nothing was the goal. As in, the Iranians would do nothing to further their nuclear capabilities, and that worked out rather well until Trump stepped in.

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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 9:05 am 
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silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
I prefer his type of diplomacy to that of sending billions of dollars in cash to a rogue regime in return for nothing. .


In the case of Iran, nothing was the goal. As in, the Iranians would do nothing to further their nuclear capabilities, and that worked out rather well until Trump stepped in.


The Mexican drug cartels have no nuclear capabilities either, so that makes Mexico a safer place.

Neither did Omar Mateen. He had no nuclear capability.

So I guess we can all sleep well now.

Goodnight.

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