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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:48 pm 
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So, since this doesn't qualify as racist, we're good with it? Or do you think she'll suffer fallout?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Beebs52 wrote:
So, since this doesn't qualify as racist, we're good with it? Or do you think she'll suffer fallout?
She's already lost at least one sponsor. The network, however, is standing behind her, since she apologized. :roll:

Of note is that her show is pre-taped (edited), so the network had every opportunity NOT to air the remarks.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Washington Post wrote:
Anyone wondering how Bee could have been so dumb need only track down the video. (As of now, it has been removed from Facebook and YouTube.) When she levels the profanity, cheers go up from the audience, from people who would flip out if any cable host deployed the same word against a Democrat. “Full Frontal” is a must-view program for the resistance to President Trump — and Bee appears to know how to please her fans. There’s a similar dynamic on view on Twitter on Thursday afternoon: Note how many people are doubling down on Bee’s initial use of “c—“, clearly disappointed by her apology. It’s like watching the country lose its decency in real time.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:12 pm 
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Sally Field wrote:
I like Samantha Bee a lot, but she is flat wrong to call Ivanka a c*nt. C*nts are powerful, beautiful, nurturing and honest.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:17 pm 
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Bob J, thank you for posting that. Because, if one tries to take the tone from the top as Valerie J said, everyone is responsible for their tone. One doesn't have to. Thank you.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:20 pm 
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I had said Wednesday that if Roseanne Barr had made her comment within the framing device of a comedy show, it might have been less horrible (in the sense that we expect a certain amount of personal expression in the context of art).

So then that night, Samantha Bee fulfills that angle. I want to think that comparing someone to an ape is different from comparing someone to a body part, but since both were intended as demeaning, they are not so different. But that fact that it WAS in the context of a comedy situation does make it a little different for me. Still pretty gross.

I am curious when they taped the Bee show, and how long they had to decide whether to include that segment (especially after the Roseanne thing). I get that it's not a publicly-available broadcast channel, and you have to pay something for TBS, but I don't really expect that line of vulgarity to be crossed until we get into the HBOs and Showtimes.

It's too bad that the use of this word to insult women is vulgar, and the similar insult of calling a man a "dick" is somehow not (I heard it on a CBS comedy a week ago). It would be nice if we could insult each other without needing to use body parts, or if we could just stick to the universal "asshole," which, as far as I know, most people still have one regardless of other anatomy.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Ritterskoop wrote:
I had said Wednesday that if Roseanne Barr had made her comment within the framing device of a comedy show, it might have been less horrible (in the sense that we expect a certain amount of personal expression in the context of art).

So then that night, Samantha Bee fulfills that angle. I want to think that comparing someone to an ape is different from comparing someone to a body part, but since both were intended as demeaning, they are not so different. But that fact that it WAS in the context of a comedy situation does make it a little different for me. Still pretty gross.

I am curious when they taped the Bee show, and how long they had to decide whether to include that segment (especially after the Roseanne thing). I get that it's not a publicly-available broadcast channel, and you have to pay something for TBS, but I don't really expect that line of vulgarity to be crossed until we get into the HBOs and Showtimes.

It's too bad that the use of this word to insult women is vulgar, and the similar insult of calling a man a "dick" is somehow not (I heard it on a CBS comedy a week ago). It would be nice if we could insult each other without needing to use body parts, or if we could just stick to the universal "asshole," which, as far as I know, most people still have one regardless of other anatomy.

I don't care about the word c#@$, just like other body parts you've referenced. I am just interested if those who profess to be "feminists" think it's as bad as a supposed racist comment. Roseanne is an asshole and I don't really care about her career, but there are value judgments flung all around in this lovely social media world of ours.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Chelsea Clinton wrote:
It’s grossly inappropriate and just flat-out wrong to describe or talk about @IvankaTrump or any woman that way.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Wait. Why is framing it in a comedy show better than twitter?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:47 pm 
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I guess "art" is in the eye of the extruder these days, cause most shows are media extentions of their participants.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Ritterskoop wrote:
I had said Wednesday that if Roseanne Barr had made her comment within the framing device of a comedy show, it might have been less horrible (in the sense that we expect a certain amount of personal expression in the context of art).

So then that night, Samantha Bee fulfills that angle. I want to think that comparing someone to an ape is different from comparing someone to a body part, but since both were intended as demeaning, they are not so different. But that fact that it WAS in the context of a comedy situation does make it a little different for me. Still pretty gross.

I am curious when they taped the Bee show, and how long they had to decide whether to include that segment (especially after the Roseanne thing). I get that it's not a publicly-available broadcast channel, and you have to pay something for TBS, but I don't really expect that line of vulgarity to be crossed until we get into the HBOs and Showtimes.

It's too bad that the use of this word to insult women is vulgar, and the similar insult of calling a man a "dick" is somehow not (I heard it on a CBS comedy a week ago). It would be nice if we could insult each other without needing to use body parts, or if we could just stick to the universal "asshole," which, as far as I know, most people still have one regardless of other anatomy.
The show is taped in the afternoon and broadcast at 10:30 Eastern Time. They had a few hours to make the decision. The vulgarity was bleeped in broadcast but not when it was put on the Internet.

I agree that the use of the vulgarity was inappropriate because that's a line the target has (as far as I know) never crossed. Lots of room for legitimate criticism of Ivanka Trump, but I agree that what Bee said deserved to be rebuked.

I'm not at all sure I'd have felt the same way if she'd used the word to, say, criticize Roseanne for her tweet. --Bob

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:21 pm 
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Bob78164 wrote:
Ritterskoop wrote:
I had said Wednesday that if Roseanne Barr had made her comment within the framing device of a comedy show, it might have been less horrible (in the sense that we expect a certain amount of personal expression in the context of art).

So then that night, Samantha Bee fulfills that angle. I want to think that comparing someone to an ape is different from comparing someone to a body part, but since both were intended as demeaning, they are not so different. But that fact that it WAS in the context of a comedy situation does make it a little different for me. Still pretty gross.

I am curious when they taped the Bee show, and how long they had to decide whether to include that segment (especially after the Roseanne thing). I get that it's not a publicly-available broadcast channel, and you have to pay something for TBS, but I don't really expect that line of vulgarity to be crossed until we get into the HBOs and Showtimes.

It's too bad that the use of this word to insult women is vulgar, and the similar insult of calling a man a "dick" is somehow not (I heard it on a CBS comedy a week ago). It would be nice if we could insult each other without needing to use body parts, or if we could just stick to the universal "asshole," which, as far as I know, most people still have one regardless of other anatomy.
The show is taped in the afternoon and broadcast at 10:30 Eastern Time. They had a few hours to make the decision. The vulgarity was bleeped in broadcast but not when it was put on the Internet.

I agree that the use of the vulgarity was inappropriate because that's a line the target has (as far as I know) never crossed. Lots of room for legitimate criticism of Ivanka Trump, but I agree that what Bee said deserved to be rebuked.

I'm not at all sure I'd have felt the same way if she'd used the word to, say, criticize Roseanne for her tweet. --Bob

See, that is interesting. I can see horking out crud to someone who attacked me or mine, not someone who spewed crud against a random 3rd party, which is what both lovely ladies did.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Qualify my last post...high profile people. Cause I'm sure I have strewn, um, aspersions.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:33 pm 
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Beebs52 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Ritterskoop wrote:
I had said Wednesday that if Roseanne Barr had made her comment within the framing device of a comedy show, it might have been less horrible (in the sense that we expect a certain amount of personal expression in the context of art).

So then that night, Samantha Bee fulfills that angle. I want to think that comparing someone to an ape is different from comparing someone to a body part, but since both were intended as demeaning, they are not so different. But that fact that it WAS in the context of a comedy situation does make it a little different for me. Still pretty gross.

I am curious when they taped the Bee show, and how long they had to decide whether to include that segment (especially after the Roseanne thing). I get that it's not a publicly-available broadcast channel, and you have to pay something for TBS, but I don't really expect that line of vulgarity to be crossed until we get into the HBOs and Showtimes.

It's too bad that the use of this word to insult women is vulgar, and the similar insult of calling a man a "dick" is somehow not (I heard it on a CBS comedy a week ago). It would be nice if we could insult each other without needing to use body parts, or if we could just stick to the universal "asshole," which, as far as I know, most people still have one regardless of other anatomy.
The show is taped in the afternoon and broadcast at 10:30 Eastern Time. They had a few hours to make the decision. The vulgarity was bleeped in broadcast but not when it was put on the Internet.

I agree that the use of the vulgarity was inappropriate because that's a line the target has (as far as I know) never crossed. Lots of room for legitimate criticism of Ivanka Trump, but I agree that what Bee said deserved to be rebuked.

I'm not at all sure I'd have felt the same way if she'd used the word to, say, criticize Roseanne for her tweet. --Bob

See, that is interesting. I can see horking out crud to someone who attacked me or mine, not someone who spewed crud against a random 3rd party, which is what both lovely ladies did.
To my mind, the difference is that Roseanne has already crossed that line so she's got no beef if she's on the receiving end this time. I also don't think Samantha Bee would have received near as much blowback if she'd said to Roseanne: "Delete your account, you racist c___!"

To be clear, I have no issue with the substance of Samantha Bee's criticism of Ivanka Trump. She is voluntarily participating in Donny's Administration so she's accepted a role in the fray. My issue is purely the use of that particular vulgarity, which I don't like because it's a form of disrespect that I don't think Ivanka Trump deserves. --Bob

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Beebs52 wrote:
Wait. Why is framing it in a comedy show better than twitter?


I meant if I had paid $20 to see a stand-up comedian, I would not be as surprised to hear these lines being crossed.

I would walk out at either expression, I think.

To introduce another line of thinking, I showed the tweet to someone at my volunteer gig Wednesday, and he said without any context (he was unaware of the whole story), he thought it was about Nazis and power and having political power, rather than racism. I said he knew way more about the Muslim Brotherhood and Planet of the Apes than I did, which is not surprising. I did love that there was another angle. That makes everything more interesting.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:41 pm 
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Oh, but I love that we have brought back "feckless".

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:46 pm 
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Not much more to add.

I have some legitimate concerns regarding Ivanka Trump's role in her father's administration - she is a smart woman, but she should not be partcipating in some of the high-level meetings (IMHO).

That said, she certainly does not deserve that word flung at her. No woman does.

I am surprised and a not a little disappointed that TBS didn't offer up something along the lines of while they supported Bee after her apology, they were suspending her for a week. Maybe more.

The word should be out-of-bounds for Samantha Bee - or anyone - on TV (or even on the internet broadcast) and there should have been a bigger consequence than two sponsors (so far) bailing.

[NOTE: mellytu has, however, used the word in describing someone :O Not often but I have. But not on TV or in front of an audience. Unless you count Miss Denise.]

I am completely in Skoop's camp on "feckless."


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:39 pm 
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That may be the only word I've never used, on purpose of course. (Who knows, I may use koinonia now that I know what it is. Before today, it was in the thousands of words I've never used because I don't know them.)

But Bee's use falls into the realm of disrespect that no one deserves, as someone said earlier. Its origins may be innocuous, but it has devolved, and its use should not be tolerated. I was playing in a volleyball game about a million years ago, and one of the opposition called the umpire the word in question after a call he didn't like. I was shocked and waited for her to throw him out. She didn't. I asked her about it later, and she said they would have had to forfeit, and she didn't want to go out after the games and find her car keyed or worse. I still think she should have thrown him out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:03 am 
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Bob Juch wrote:
Sally Field wrote:
I like Samantha Bee a lot, but she is flat wrong to call Ivanka a c*nt. C*nts are powerful, beautiful, nurturing and honest.


Sally Field is exactly right. Same reason why I've never referred to any member of the Drumpf family as a pile of s**t--because piles of s**t actually serve a legitimate purpose as fertilizer.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:31 am 
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I don't like the word c*nt. Because it pares the object of it, female or male, down to being a sexual entity that the name-caller apparently despises.

It in no way compares to Barr's racist remark. Barr's remark has a whole racist history behind it, complete with cartoons from I'd have hoped a previous era. Which Barr is smart enough to know about.

Whereas one woman calling another woman a c*nt is just one-on-one vulgar.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:44 am 
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Beebs52 wrote:
So, since this doesn't qualify as racist, we're good with it? Or do you think she'll suffer fallout?


If Roseanne Barr had called Valerie Jarrett a feckless c===, she would still have her TV show. And people would have congratulated her on her vocabulary.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:56 am 
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I'm not sure what's wrong with using a bonafide medical term...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:37 am 
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Some thoughts:

1) I don't know much about Samantha Bee. I've never seen her show in whole or in part and the only examples of her humor I've seen are occasional one-liners that get included in the weekly comic wrap-ups on Sunday news shows, along with Colbert, Kimmel et al.

2) In my view, the use of crude language in general as a source of humor is a poor copout, which generally indicates that a comic or his/her writers can't think of anything genuinely funny to say and resort to schoolyard language as a fallback. Wits over the ages like Oscar Wilde and Winston Churchill had no difficulty cutting down opponents without resort to such language.

3) Having said that, a lot of audiences today aren't interested in or can't comprehend Wilde/Churchill putdowns and seem to love crudeness. That's true on both the left and the right, as evidenced by the comments about Hillary and Obama that get endlessly retweeted among right wingers.

4) Language standards (and standards in general) on basic cable like TBS are not the same as on network TV. The other night on the finale of The Americans, one character called another a "f...ing piece of shit." (And, of course, just about anything goes in terms of violence on shows like The Walking Dead.) If a character on a scripted TBS or TNT show had called another a "feckless c..t," it would have probably wound up on air. So, it's not surprising that whoever was responsible for editing and producing her show didn't pick up on the full significance of the comment. And it's even less surprising that the network higher ups were unaware before it aired.

5) Standards have always been relaxed as far as comics criticizing people of the same race or sex as others. Black comics often use the N-word in routines in situations that white comics never could. Like it or not, that's the way it is nowadays. If Samantha Bee (or Roseanne) had called another woman in general a c..t, it wouldn't have caused a stir, as in "Do you know what that c..t driving next to me did today?"

6) Given all of this, it was still wrong for Samantha Bee to make those comments, just as it would have been wrong for Roseanne to use the same phrase in regard to Valerie Jarrett. It was a vulgar expression uttered with the intent to hurt as opposed to any real comic value, and while I'm sure Ivanka has heard much worse, it's an intentionally spiteful slur that was intended more for the pain it would inflict on her followers than Ivanka herself. And, in light of the timing, it was incredibly stupid for Samantha Bee to make that statement at that time, knowing that many right wingers were just looking for a reason to point fingers.

7) I also think that many right wingers were just looking for an excuse to avoid having to chastise Roseanne and hopped on these comments as demonstrating the supposed hypocrisy of the left. (Those same people rarely if ever comment of real hypocrisy such as the vastly disparate criminal punishments for actual crimes committed by whites as opposed to blacks.) At first, they dragged out a five-year-old joke Bill Maher did comparing Trump's hair to an orangutan. That was as lame as it sounds, but now they've got a reason to justify not criticizing Roseanne and turning her into some kind of martyr.

8 ) Even on the tit-for-tat scale, Roseanne's comments were on a whole other level than Samantha Bee's. Bee's comments were a very crude criticism of Ivanka's personality and actions. Roseanne wasn't just slurring Valerie Jarrett, but black people in general with a stereotype that's probably second only to the N-word in hatefulness.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:53 am 
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One thing I've learned from all this: Valarie Jarrett is black (or partially). I did not know that.

Doubt I will get an HQ question so the knowledge is useless.

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