Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

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Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#1 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:15 pm

Bruce Polinquin currently represents Maine's second congressional district. Maine has adopted ranked choice voting for federal elections. There were four candidates, Polinquin, Democrat Jared Golden, and two left-leaning independents. After the first round of voting, it looks like Polinquin will end up ahead of Golden roughly 47% to 46%.

Under Maine's rules, because neither candidate received a majority the second choice (and if necessary. the third choice) of the other two candidates will be considered until one of the two leading candidates wins a majority. It's undoubtedly the case that at least some of those voters chose an independent as their first choice, knowing that their second and third choices would be considered if, as was likely, their first choice didn't do well.

Now that the election is over, Polinquin is suing to change those rules. He wants the United States District Court for the District of Maine to halt the ranked-choice process. This is because he expects the second and third choice votes of the independents to elect Golden.

I think his lawsuit is utterly meritless (he claims that the Constitution requires plurality elections, but it plainly doesn't) but that's not my current point. It's one thing to sue in advance of the election if you think there's something wrong with the rules (even though they were adopted, twice, by a direct popular vote of the citizens of Maine). It's something altogether different to wait until after the election is over and then tell voters that their votes won't be counted in the way they had been told to expect.

This is the ultimate expression of disrespect for the voters who choose their representative. It is the epitome of a sore loser play. I really hope that the courts give him the spanking he deserves. --Bob
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#2 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:33 pm

Bob78164 wrote:Bruce Polinquin currently represents Maine's second congressional district. Maine has adopted ranked choice voting for federal elections. There were four candidates, Polinquin, Democrat Jared Golden, and two left-leaning independents. After the first round of voting, it looks like Polinquin will end up ahead of Golden roughly 47% to 46%.

Under Maine's rules, because neither candidate received a majority the second choice (and if necessary. the third choice) of the other two candidates will be considered until one of the two leading candidates wins a majority. It's undoubtedly the case that at least some of those voters chose an independent as their first choice, knowing that their second and third choices would be considered if, as was likely, their first choice didn't do well.

Now that the election is over, Polinquin is suing to change those rules. He wants the United States District Court for the District of Maine to halt the ranked-choice process. This is because he expects the second and third choice votes of the independents to elect Golden.

I think his lawsuit is utterly meritless (he claims that the Constitution requires plurality elections, but it plainly doesn't) but that's not my current point. It's one thing to sue in advance of the election if you think there's something wrong with the rules (even though they were adopted, twice, by a direct popular vote of the citizens of Maine). It's something altogether different to wait until after the election is over and then tell voters that their votes won't be counted in the way they had been told to expect.

This is the ultimate expression of disrespect for the voters who choose their representative. It is the epitome of a sore loser play. I really hope that the courts give him the spanking he deserves. --Bob
Really, bob-tel? Your revered party refuses to accept any close race if they lose. You still haven't accepted that trump won the presidency, and you are on record saying you want to change the rules because you didn't like the results. Losers from your party won't accept the vote results in GA and FL. Gimmee a break, there bob-tel, you bitter clinger.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#3 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:07 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: Really, bob-tel? Your revered party refuses to accept any close race if they lose. You still haven't accepted that trump won the presidency, and you are on record saying you want to change the rules because you didn't like the results. Losers from your party won't accept the vote results in GA and FL. Gimmee a break, there bob-tel, you bitter clinger.
There is a difference between "refusing to accept a close race" and making sure all the votes are counted and that state and federal laws are followed. I don't know of any prominent Democrats or Bob who hasn't accepted that Trump has won the Presidency, unlike, say, Trump, who spent five years trying and failing to prove that Obama was not eligible to be President. Bob has ever right to want to change the rules going forward as does Bruce Polinquin. He wants to change the rules of this election because he didn't like the results.

Florida law gives both Gillum and Nelson the right to ask for a recount, and, in fact, there are some overseas votes that have until next week to arrive. Here in Georgia, the issue is more complicated, but what the Democrats want is to ensure that all the eligible votes are actually counted as well.

Flock, if you would actually make an attempt to study issues and facts rather than merely rely on what your right wing sources spoonfeed you every day, you might be able to come up with some better informed opinions.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#4 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:11 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:Bruce Polinquin currently represents Maine's second congressional district. Maine has adopted ranked choice voting for federal elections. There were four candidates, Polinquin, Democrat Jared Golden, and two left-leaning independents. After the first round of voting, it looks like Polinquin will end up ahead of Golden roughly 47% to 46%.

Under Maine's rules, because neither candidate received a majority the second choice (and if necessary. the third choice) of the other two candidates will be considered until one of the two leading candidates wins a majority. It's undoubtedly the case that at least some of those voters chose an independent as their first choice, knowing that their second and third choices would be considered if, as was likely, their first choice didn't do well.

Now that the election is over, Polinquin is suing to change those rules. He wants the United States District Court for the District of Maine to halt the ranked-choice process. This is because he expects the second and third choice votes of the independents to elect Golden.

I think his lawsuit is utterly meritless (he claims that the Constitution requires plurality elections, but it plainly doesn't) but that's not my current point. It's one thing to sue in advance of the election if you think there's something wrong with the rules (even though they were adopted, twice, by a direct popular vote of the citizens of Maine). It's something altogether different to wait until after the election is over and then tell voters that their votes won't be counted in the way they had been told to expect.

This is the ultimate expression of disrespect for the voters who choose their representative. It is the epitome of a sore loser play. I really hope that the courts give him the spanking he deserves. --Bob
Really, bob-tel? Your revered party refuses to accept any close race if they lose. You still haven't accepted that trump won the presidency, and you are on record saying you want to change the rules because you didn't like the results. Losers from your party won't accept the vote results in GA and FL. Gimmee a break, there bob-tel, you bitter clinger.
I do want to change the rules for future presidential elections. But I've never argued that Secretary Clinton should have been deemed the winner because she won the popular vote by millions of votes. What Polinquin is trying to do is similar.

And wasn't it Republican Norm Coleman who forced Minnesota to go for months with only one senator because he insisted on exercising all of his legal rights before acknowledging that he'd lost the election? Once again, your position is utter bullshit, having nothing to do with the facts. Democrats seek to have all legal votes counted. Republicans know that the votes coming in late tend to break Democratic because Republican absentee voters mail their votes in early whereas Democratic voters tend to vote toward the end of the period. But they're all perfectly valid votes and all of them deserve to be counted, and if they change the result, that's too damn bad for your side. --Bob
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#5 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:23 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:Bruce Polinquin currently represents Maine's second congressional district. Maine has adopted ranked choice voting for federal elections. There were four candidates, Polinquin, Democrat Jared Golden, and two left-leaning independents. After the first round of voting, it looks like Polinquin will end up ahead of Golden roughly 47% to 46%.

Under Maine's rules, because neither candidate received a majority the second choice (and if necessary. the third choice) of the other two candidates will be considered until one of the two leading candidates wins a majority. It's undoubtedly the case that at least some of those voters chose an independent as their first choice, knowing that their second and third choices would be considered if, as was likely, their first choice didn't do well.

Now that the election is over, Polinquin is suing to change those rules. He wants the United States District Court for the District of Maine to halt the ranked-choice process. This is because he expects the second and third choice votes of the independents to elect Golden.

I think his lawsuit is utterly meritless (he claims that the Constitution requires plurality elections, but it plainly doesn't) but that's not my current point. It's one thing to sue in advance of the election if you think there's something wrong with the rules (even though they were adopted, twice, by a direct popular vote of the citizens of Maine). It's something altogether different to wait until after the election is over and then tell voters that their votes won't be counted in the way they had been told to expect.

This is the ultimate expression of disrespect for the voters who choose their representative. It is the epitome of a sore loser play. I really hope that the courts give him the spanking he deserves. --Bob
Really, bob-tel? Your revered party refuses to accept any close race if they lose. You still haven't accepted that trump won the presidency, and you are on record saying you want to change the rules because you didn't like the results. Losers from your party won't accept the vote results in GA and FL. Gimmee a break, there bob-tel, you bitter clinger.
I do want to change the rules for future presidential elections. But I've never argued that Secretary Clinton should have been deemed the winner because she won the popular vote by millions of votes. What Polinquin is trying to do is similar.

And wasn't it Republican Norm Coleman who forced Minnesota to go for months with only one senator because he insisted on exercising all of his legal rights before acknowledging that he'd lost the election? Once again, your position is utter bullshit, having nothing to do with the facts. Democrats seek to have all legal votes counted. Republicans know that the votes coming in late tend to break Democratic because Republican absentee voters mail their votes in early whereas Democratic voters tend to vote toward the end of the period. But they're all perfectly valid votes and all of them deserve to be counted, and if they change the result, that's too damn bad for your side. --Bob
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#6 Post by ghostjmf » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:30 pm

In Mass, we count them on election day. There may be a lateness margin but I don't know what it is. I know the official for Cambridge motored 3 envelopes over after I had already done my count of "total checkins".

Since we add voters column by column, then total the columns for a page, then add the page totals, this is harder than it sounds for a tired pollworker.

These late votes have to be marked, as all votes are, by a check mark in red next to the voter's name, & you have to redo all those totals. Checkout workers have to do the same. Then you compare sheets & totals.

They should match exactly, but most times a couple voters escape checkout.

This year a former friend went ballistic on me while I was adding, perhaps at the thought they'd missed an escaping voter.

Remember to check out at the polling place, folks.

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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#7 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:37 pm

rely on what your right wing sources spoonfeed you every day
Once again, Happy Feb 2nd.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#8 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:28 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: Really, bob-tel? Your revered party refuses to accept any close race if they lose. You still haven't accepted that trump won the presidency, and you are on record saying you want to change the rules because you didn't like the results. Losers from your party won't accept the vote results in GA and FL. Gimmee a break, there bob-tel, you bitter clinger.
There is a difference between "refusing to accept a close race" and making sure all the votes are counted and that state and federal laws are followed. I don't know of any prominent Democrats or Bob who hasn't accepted that Trump has won the Presidency, unlike, say, Trump, who spent five years trying and failing to prove that Obama was not eligible to be President. Bob has ever right to want to change the rules going forward as does Bruce Polinquin. He wants to change the rules of this election because he didn't like the results.

Florida law gives both Gillum and Nelson the right to ask for a recount, and, in fact, there are some overseas votes that have until next week to arrive. Here in Georgia, the issue is more complicated, but what the Democrats want is to ensure that all the eligible votes are actually counted as well.

Flock, if you would actually make an attempt to study issues and facts rather than merely rely on what your right wing sources spoonfeed you every day, you might be able to come up with some better informed opinions.
https://www.local10.com/news/elections/ ... in-ballots
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#9 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:13 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
rely on what your right wing sources spoonfeed you every day
Once again, Happy Feb 2nd.
It's amazing how I can always tell what you're going to say by what those sites said the day before.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#10 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:28 pm

What I said was " making sure all the votes are counted and that state and federal laws are followed."

That's what this lawsuit does, because it says that the arrival date requirement is unconstitutional and they have made at least an arguable case to that effect.

Again, Democrats want votes counted; Republicans do not.

And as far as the Maine lawsuits are concerned, they were already heard on the same issue prior to the primaries in Maine and the law was upheld at that time.
Last edited by silverscreenselect on Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#11 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:53 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
rely on what your right wing sources spoonfeed you every day
Once again, Happy Feb 2nd.
It's amazing how I can always tell what you're going to say by what those sites said the day before.
Wow, that day went fast. Good morning!
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#12 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:56 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Wow, that day went fast. Good morning!
Flock, when you mouth the same nonsense over and over again, you'll get the same response over and over.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#13 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:02 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
What I said was " making sure all the votes are counted and that state and federal laws are followed."

That's what this lawsuit does, because it says that the arrival date requirement is unconstitutional and they have made at least an arguable case to that effect.

Again, Democrats want votes counted; Republicans do not.

And as far as the Maine lawsuits are concerned, they were already heard on the same issue prior to the primaries in Maine and the law was upheld at that time.
The law in question was proposed, sent to the appropriate legislative body, and presumably voted on. I assume the democrats had a say in that process. It assumably was passed by the appropriate body, and it became one of the rules for casting votes in the state of Florida. It may be unconstitutional, it may be silly, unfair, racist or whatever you want to call it. But it was and is the law right now. Isn't it kind of telling that the dems decide to file this lawsuit at this very time, when they're scrounging for any votes they can find to change the result of the election? Amazing that they finally realized it was unconstitutional and unfair, racist, sexist and tended to disenfranchise democrats after all that. HMMMM?
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#14 Post by jarnon » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:25 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:The law in question was proposed, sent to the appropriate legislative body, and presumably voted on. I assume the democrats had a say in that process. It assumably was passed by the appropriate body, and it became one of the rules for casting votes in the state of Florida. It may be unconstitutional, it may be silly, unfair, racist or whatever you want to call it. But it was and is the law right now. Isn't it kind of telling that the dems decide to file this lawsuit at this very time, when they're scrounging for any votes they can find to change the result of the election? Amazing that they finally realized it was unconstitutional and unfair, racist, sexist and tended to disenfranchise democrats after all that. HMMMM?
Judges generally rule that, even if a voting law is unconstitutional, the correction only applies to future elections. Otherwise everyone would try to alter the rules to help their party. They only make exceptions in extraordinary cases like natural disasters.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#15 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:45 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: Isn't it kind of telling that the dems decide to file this lawsuit at this very time, when they're scrounging for any votes they can find to change the result of the election?
Courts require that there be an actual case or controversy before they will decide any case. A party has to show, not just that a law might be unconstitutional, but that the law as applied affects them adversely. Before the election, courts would probably have thrown out the lawsuit because Bill Nelson and the Democrats couldn't show they would be aggrieved by the decision.

Rick Scott has also filed at least a half dozen lawsuits regarding the recount in various counties. Whether or not these suits have merit, or whether Nelson's have merit will be up to the various courts to decide.

There is one big difference between these various suits. The right to vote is fundamental and laws encroaching on it are strictly construed, regardless of whether it's Democrats or Republicans trying to protect that right. The "right" not to have a recount is not fundamental.

And, by the way, there's also a recount going on in the race for Agriculture Commissioner, where the Democratic candidate leads by a few thousand votes. So counting the votes in that election might well result in a Republican winning an election via recount.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#16 Post by Estonut » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:35 am

Bob78164 wrote:But I've never argued that Secretary Clinton should have been deemed the winner because she won the popular vote by millions of votes.
Perhaps not, but you've complained about it 23 times (including nested duplicates) since the election.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#17 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:29 am

Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:But I've never argued that Secretary Clinton should have been deemed the winner because she won the popular vote by millions of votes.
Perhaps not, but you've complained about it 23 times (including nested duplicates) since the election.
A minority of the country has been using its political power to screw the majority of us. Their policies would cause significant harm to me and to my family. You're damn right I've been complaining about it. And I'll continue to do so until the problem is fixed. Step 1 was last Tuesday. --Bob
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#18 Post by Estonut » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:52 am

Bob78164 wrote:
Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:But I've never argued that Secretary Clinton should have been deemed the winner because she won the popular vote by millions of votes.
Perhaps not, but you've complained about it 23 times (including nested duplicates) since the election.
A minority of the country has been using its political power to screw the majority of us. Their policies would cause significant harm to me and to my family. You're damn right I've been complaining about it. And I'll continue to do so until the problem is fixed. Step 1 was last Tuesday.
It sounds as if you DO think that Secretary Clinton should have been deemed the winner because she won the popular vote by millions of votes.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#19 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:12 am

Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
A minority of the country has been using its political power to screw the majority of us. Their policies would cause significant harm to me and to my family. You're damn right I've been complaining about it. And I'll continue to do so until the problem is fixed. Step 1 was last Tuesday.
It sounds as if you DO think that Secretary Clinton should have been deemed the winner because she won the popular vote by millions of votes.
No. I wish that the rules had been such that winning the popular vote meant that she won the election and I'd like the rules for future elections changed to make that the case, but I acknowledged then and acknowledge now that those simply weren't the rules at the time. --Bob
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#20 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:27 am

Bob78164 wrote:
Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:A minority of the country has been using its political power to screw the majority of us. Their policies would cause significant harm to me and to my family. You're damn right I've been complaining about it. And I'll continue to do so until the problem is fixed. Step 1 was last Tuesday.
It sounds as if you DO think that Secretary Clinton should have been deemed the winner because she won the popular vote by millions of votes.
No. I wish that the rules had been such that winning the popular vote meant that she won the election and I'd like the rules for future elections changed to make that the case, but I acknowledged then and acknowledge now that those simply weren't the rules at the time. --Bob
So do everything you possibly can and never stop until you get a Constitutional Amendment passed.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#21 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:41 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Estonut wrote:It sounds as if you DO think that Secretary Clinton should have been deemed the winner because she won the popular vote by millions of votes.
No. I wish that the rules had been such that winning the popular vote meant that she won the election and I'd like the rules for future elections changed to make that the case, but I acknowledged then and acknowledge now that those simply weren't the rules at the time. --Bob
So do everything you possibly can and never stop until you get a Constitutional Amendment passed.
I'll settle for the Interstate Popular Vote Compact. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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tlynn78
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#22 Post by tlynn78 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:45 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:No. I wish that the rules had been such that winning the popular vote meant that she won the election and I'd like the rules for future elections changed to make that the case, but I acknowledged then and acknowledge now that those simply weren't the rules at the time. --Bob
So do everything you possibly can and never stop until you get a Constitutional Amendment passed.
I'll settle for the Interstate Popular Vote Compact. --Bob
And then when your chosen one loses the popular vote, but would have won with the electoral college, will you 'do everything in your power' to change it back?
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. -Ayn Rand
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

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Bob78164
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#23 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:51 pm

tlynn78 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
So do everything you possibly can and never stop until you get a Constitutional Amendment passed.
I'll settle for the Interstate Popular Vote Compact. --Bob
And then when your chosen one loses the popular vote, but would have won with the electoral college, will you 'do everything in your power' to change it back?
No, that's a result I'll be willing to live with. Hell, this result would be more palatable if Republicans would govern with humility arising from the knowledge that their policies don't enjoy majority support, even if they have (for the moment) the political power to impose their will on the majority. But instead, they're exploiting their political power for all it's worth. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#24 Post by Estonut » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:33 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
tlynn78 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:I'll settle for the Interstate Popular Vote Compact.
And then when your chosen one loses the popular vote, but would have won with the electoral college, will you 'do everything in your power' to change it back?
No, that's a result I'll be willing to live with. Hell, this result would be more palatable if Republicans would govern with humility arising from the knowledge that their policies don't enjoy majority support, even if they have (for the moment) the political power to impose their will on the majority. But instead, they're exploiting their political power for all it's worth.
But a Hillary win (because of popular vote) would have done the same thing, as she had no majority, either.
A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
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Re: Polinquin wants to change the election's rules

#25 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:44 pm

Estonut wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
tlynn78 wrote:And then when your chosen one loses the popular vote, but would have won with the electoral college, will you 'do everything in your power' to change it back?
No, that's a result I'll be willing to live with. Hell, this result would be more palatable if Republicans would govern with humility arising from the knowledge that their policies don't enjoy majority support, even if they have (for the moment) the political power to impose their will on the majority. But instead, they're exploiting their political power for all it's worth.
But a Hillary win (because of popular vote) would have done the same thing, as she had no majority, either.
I'd be fine with ranked choice voting to solve that problem. But even a plurality would confer more political legitimacy than the current system. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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