Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

The forum for general posting. Come join the madness. :)
Post Reply
Message
Author
Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#1 Post by Spock » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:57 am

https://runningironreport.com/biograph/ ... ard-to-do/

Pull Quotes

>>>"I remember the moment well. I was walking across the great meadow at the center of the University of California, Santa Cruz, campus, one of the beautiful natural features of the university that was a primary reason I was there, when a student handed me a flyer from a sheaf he as carrying. The flyer explained that “traditional male values” were responsible for rape and therefore men needed to be “fixed.”

I was, to say the least, taken aback by this assertion. It seemed insane. The “traditional male values” I was raised on and surrounded myself with held that a man who would force himself on a woman was no kind of man at all. “Consent” wasn’t a thing; the standard, though it never seemed to need to be defined, was enthusiastic participation.<<<

>>>" I will go so far as to concede that the term “Toxic Masculinity” could have some utility, if it was used precisely and not conflated with “traditional masculinity.”<<<<

Running Iron Report (RIR) is an offshoot of Frontier Partisans

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#2 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:22 am

Spock wrote:https://runningironreport.com/biograph/ ... ard-to-do/

Pull Quotes

>>>"I remember the moment well. I was walking across the great meadow at the center of the University of California, Santa Cruz, campus, one of the beautiful natural features of the university that was a primary reason I was there, when a student handed me a flyer from a sheaf he as carrying. The flyer explained that “traditional male values” were responsible for rape and therefore men needed to be “fixed.”

I was, to say the least, taken aback by this assertion. It seemed insane. The “traditional male values” I was raised on and surrounded myself with held that a man who would force himself on a woman was no kind of man at all. “Consent” wasn’t a thing; the standard, though it never seemed to need to be defined, was enthusiastic participation.<<<

>>>" I will go so far as to concede that the term “Toxic Masculinity” could have some utility, if it was used precisely and not conflated with “traditional masculinity.”<<<<

Running Iron Report (RIR) is an offshoot of Frontier Partisans
The phrase “traditional masculinity” obviously changes meaning depending on whose traditions you’re referring to. —Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#3 Post by Spock » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:45 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Spock wrote:https://runningironreport.com/biograph/ ... ard-to-do/

Pull Quotes

>>>"I remember the moment well. I was walking across the great meadow at the center of the University of California, Santa Cruz, campus, one of the beautiful natural features of the university that was a primary reason I was there, when a student handed me a flyer from a sheaf he as carrying. The flyer explained that “traditional male values” were responsible for rape and therefore men needed to be “fixed.”

I was, to say the least, taken aback by this assertion. It seemed insane. The “traditional male values” I was raised on and surrounded myself with held that a man who would force himself on a woman was no kind of man at all. “Consent” wasn’t a thing; the standard, though it never seemed to need to be defined, was enthusiastic participation.<<<

>>>" I will go so far as to concede that the term “Toxic Masculinity” could have some utility, if it was used precisely and not conflated with “traditional masculinity.”<<<<

Running Iron Report (RIR) is an offshoot of Frontier Partisans
The phrase “traditional masculinity” obviously changes meaning depending on whose traditions you’re referring to. —Bob
Explain what you mean.

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#4 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:14 pm

Spock wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Spock wrote:https://runningironreport.com/biograph/ ... ard-to-do/

Pull Quotes

>>>"I remember the moment well. I was walking across the great meadow at the center of the University of California, Santa Cruz, campus, one of the beautiful natural features of the university that was a primary reason I was there, when a student handed me a flyer from a sheaf he as carrying. The flyer explained that “traditional male values” were responsible for rape and therefore men needed to be “fixed.”

I was, to say the least, taken aback by this assertion. It seemed insane. The “traditional male values” I was raised on and surrounded myself with held that a man who would force himself on a woman was no kind of man at all. “Consent” wasn’t a thing; the standard, though it never seemed to need to be defined, was enthusiastic participation.<<<

>>>" I will go so far as to concede that the term “Toxic Masculinity” could have some utility, if it was used precisely and not conflated with “traditional masculinity.”<<<<

Running Iron Report (RIR) is an offshoot of Frontier Partisans
The phrase “traditional masculinity” obviously changes meaning depending on whose traditions you’re referring to. —Bob
Explain what you mean.
I thought it was obvious. Different groups have different traditions, so referring to “traditional masculinity” without further qualification necessarily assumes the traditions of a specific group that the writer tacitly assumes his audience can identify. —Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Beebs52
Queen of Wack
Posts: 14890
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:38 am
Location: Location.Location.Location

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#5 Post by Beebs52 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:17 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Spock wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:The phrase “traditional masculinity” obviously changes meaning depending on whose traditions you’re referring to. —Bob
Explain what you mean.
I thought it was obvious. Different groups have different traditions, so referring to “traditional masculinity” without further qualification necessarily assumes the traditions of a specific group that the writer tacitly assumes his audience can identify. —Bob
Perhaps Western civilization masculinity as opposed to Saudi Arabian masculinity.
There. You may blame me for instigation.
Well, then

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#6 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:24 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Spock wrote:
Explain what you mean.
I thought it was obvious. Different groups have different traditions, so referring to “traditional masculinity” without further qualification necessarily assumes the traditions of a specific group that the writer tacitly assumes his audience can identify. —Bob
Perhaps Western civilization masculinity as opposed to Saudi Arabian masculinity.
There. You may blame me for instigation.
I think this discussion has made clear that Western Civilization contains multiple definitions of “traditional masculinity.” —Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Beebs52
Queen of Wack
Posts: 14890
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:38 am
Location: Location.Location.Location

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#7 Post by Beebs52 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:34 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:I thought it was obvious. Different groups have different traditions, so referring to “traditional masculinity” without further qualification necessarily assumes the traditions of a specific group that the writer tacitly assumes his audience can identify. —Bob
Perhaps Western civilization masculinity as opposed to Saudi Arabian masculinity.
There. You may blame me for instigation.
I think this discussion has made clear that Western Civilization contains multiple definitions of “traditional masculinity.” —Bob
Not talking about nonviolent, our societally condoned behavior and you know it. Stop it.
Well, then

User avatar
Bob Juch
Posts: 26427
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:58 am
Location: Oro Valley, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#8 Post by Bob Juch » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:46 pm

Let's eliminate Neandertal Masculinity then worry about Traditional Masculinity.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)

Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.

Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#9 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:36 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:
Perhaps Western civilization masculinity as opposed to Saudi Arabian masculinity.
There. You may blame me for instigation.
I think this discussion has made clear that Western Civilization contains multiple definitions of “traditional masculinity.” —Bob
Not talking about nonviolent, our societally condoned behavior and you know it. Stop it.
Don’t tell me what to do or what I know.

But I’m making a point that should be non-controversial. “Traditional masculinity” means different things to different people. I suspect you’re reading more into my statement than is there. —Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#10 Post by Spock » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:01 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:I think this discussion has made clear that Western Civilization contains multiple definitions of “traditional masculinity.” —Bob
Not talking about nonviolent, our societally condoned behavior and you know it. Stop it.
Don’t tell me what to do or what I know.

But I’m making a point that should be non-controversial. “Traditional masculinity” means different things to different people. I suspect you’re reading more into my statement than is there. —Bob
Does "Traditional Masculinity" really mean different things to different peoples across time and space? Pretty similar, in that men are largely viewed as responsible for protecting women, infants and children-I know that with the new infanticide bill in New York, you certainly don't view your role as protecting infants. But then nobody has ever accused you of being traditionally masculine.

This quote from the linked article in the original post makes me think of you and SSS.

>>>"I get that not every male aspires to be a “manly man.” Don’t care. Not a problem. The problem only comes when, since he can’t or doesn’t want to meet the standard, he denigrates and devalues the standard and those who aspire to it. And if you push back against the denigration, well… you’re part of the “toxic” problem, aren’t you?"<<<

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#11 Post by Bob78164 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:19 pm

Spock wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:
Not talking about nonviolent, our societally condoned behavior and you know it. Stop it.
Don’t tell me what to do or what I know.

But I’m making a point that should be non-controversial. “Traditional masculinity” means different things to different people. I suspect you’re reading more into my statement than is there. —Bob
Does "Traditional Masculinity" really mean different things to different peoples across time and space? Pretty similar, in that men are largely viewed as responsible for protecting women, infants and children-I know that with the new infanticide bill in New York, you certainly don't view your role as protecting infants. But then nobody has ever accused you of being traditionally masculine.

This quote from the linked article in the original post makes me think of you and SSS.

>>>"I get that not every male aspires to be a “manly man.” Don’t care. Not a problem. The problem only comes when, since he can’t or doesn’t want to meet the standard, he denigrates and devalues the standard and those who aspire to it. And if you push back against the denigration, well… you’re part of the “toxic” problem, aren’t you?"<<<
You’re making things up. There is no “infanticide” bill in New York. What just passed is a bill allowing women to terminate pregnancies of non-viable fetuses in the third trimester when carrying the pregnancy to term would endanger their life or health.

You want to try explaining to me why the bill that actually passed is a bad thing? Would you like your wife, or your daughter, forced to carry a non-viable pregnancy to term at the risk of her life or health? Because I won’t let you impose that risk on the women in my life. —Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
BackInTex
Posts: 12780
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:43 pm
Location: In Texas of course!

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#12 Post by BackInTex » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:05 pm

Bob78164 wrote: But I’m making a point that should be non-controversial. “Traditional masculinity” means different things to different people. I suspect you’re reading more into my statement than is there. —Bob
Your statement about [a term, any term] meaning something different to different people is true, but an cop out statement. Most terms having a value adjective or identifier will mean different things to different people. Even the word masculinity means something different to different people.

How do YOU define "Traditional masculinity"? That is the question. And do you think it is a bad thing needing much change? Or, as I do, my definition of traditional masculinity, think it a pretty good thing, with nothing needing to be changed other than preventing some things from being associated with or called "traditional masculinity"?
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#13 Post by Bob78164 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:46 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Bob78164 wrote: But I’m making a point that should be non-controversial. “Traditional masculinity” means different things to different people. I suspect you’re reading more into my statement than is there. —Bob
Your statement about [a term, any term] meaning something different to different people is true, but an cop out statement. Most terms having a value adjective or identifier will mean different things to different people. Even the word masculinity means something different to different people.

How do YOU define "Traditional masculinity"? That is the question. And do you think it is a bad thing needing much change? Or, as I do, my definition of traditional masculinity, think it a pretty good thing, with nothing needing to be changed other than preventing some things from being associated with or called "traditional masculinity"?
I give almost no thought to what’s traditional because I really don’t care about tradition. What I care about is what people are doing in the here and now. I start having a problem when people use “tradition” as a rationale or excuse to exert social pressure to perpetuate stereotyping, such as a man’s proper role being the head of the household or a woman’s property role being subservient to men, that I consider odious at best and destructive at worst.

And by the way, “traditional” isn’t a value identifier. It’s a claim of historical fact that is meaningless until you identify the population or culture to which you’re referring. —Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#14 Post by Spock » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:32 pm

>>>I give almost no thought to what’s traditional because I really don’t care about tradition. What I care about is what people are doing in the here and now. <<<

Not a shock there. Hmm, let's throw away (without any thought) time-tested things that work and just wing it-because I think something might work.

To me, knocking up a woman and having her get an abortion should be the dictionary definition of toxic masculinity.

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#15 Post by Bob78164 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:06 pm

Spock wrote:>>>I give almost no thought to what’s traditional because I really don’t care about tradition. What I care about is what people are doing in the here and now. <<<

Not a shock there. Hmm, let's throw away (without any thought) time-tested things that work and just wing it-because I think something might work.

To me, knocking up a woman and having her get an abortion should be the dictionary definition of toxic masculinity.
To me, anything that interferes with the woman’s right to choose in either direction is pretty damn toxic.

And as usual, you have misstated my position. If something traditional is still working, I’m fine with it. But if it’s not working, “tradition” is no reason to preserve it. I care about whether it works, not about whether some culture considers it “traditional.” —Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

Spock
Posts: 4295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#16 Post by Spock » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:14 am

Bob78164 wrote:
Spock wrote:>>>I give almost no thought to what’s traditional because I really don’t care about tradition. What I care about is what people are doing in the here and now. <<<

Not a shock there. Hmm, let's throw away (without any thought) time-tested things that work and just wing it-because I think something might work.

To me, knocking up a woman and having her get an abortion should be the dictionary definition of toxic masculinity.
To me, anything that interferes with the woman’s right to choose in either direction is pretty damn toxic.

And as usual, you have misstated my position. If something traditional is still working, I’m fine with it. But if it’s not working, “tradition” is no reason to preserve it. I care about whether it works, not about whether some culture considers it “traditional.” —Bob
if you "Give almost no thought to what's traditional" how do you know if it's working?

User avatar
silverscreenselect
Posts: 23175
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#17 Post by silverscreenselect » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:35 am

BackInTex wrote: How do YOU define "Traditional masculinity"? That is the question. And do you think it is a bad thing needing much change?
The problem with "traditional masculinity" as we think of the chivalrous, protective ideal, is that it simply hasn't been practiced by far too many people for far too long. Children grow up and they don't emulate what they read in fairy tales or old-school TV Westerns; they emulate what their fathers and the other male role models in their lives do. And when those role models come home drunk and slap around their wives and make "fag" jokes and other assorted similar behavior, that's what children often view as being a "real man." Even in less extreme cases, "traditional masculinity" too often means, in practice, trying to control every aspect of the wife and children's lives in order to "protect" them, when it really translates into dominating them.
Check out our website: http://www.silverscreenvideos.com

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 21626
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: Toxic Vs Traditional Masculinity at RIR

#18 Post by Bob78164 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:49 pm

Spock wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
Spock wrote:>>>I give almost no thought to what’s traditional because I really don’t care about tradition. What I care about is what people are doing in the here and now. <<<

Not a shock there. Hmm, let's throw away (without any thought) time-tested things that work and just wing it-because I think something might work.

To me, knocking up a woman and having her get an abortion should be the dictionary definition of toxic masculinity.
To me, anything that interferes with the woman’s right to choose in either direction is pretty damn toxic.

And as usual, you have misstated my position. If something traditional is still working, I’m fine with it. But if it’s not working, “tradition” is no reason to preserve it. I care about whether it works, not about whether some culture considers it “traditional.” —Bob
if you "Give almost no thought to what's traditional" how do you know if it's working?
I have eyes and a mind of my own.

I’m well aware of what’s customary in many circumstances. I just don’t care whether it’s customary because it’s traditional or for some other reason. —Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

Post Reply