Mueller has delivered his report

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tlynn78
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#76 Post by tlynn78 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:27 pm

Bob78164 wrote:“President Trump reacted negatively to the Special Counsel’s appointment. He told advisors that it was the end of his presidency . . . .”

That’s compelling evidence of guilty knowledge. If he didn’t do anything wrong, an investigation wouldn’t end his presidency.

“He . . . sought to have Attorney General Jefferson (Jeff) Sessions unrecuse from the Russia investigation and to have the Special Counsel removed, and engaged in efforts to curtail the Special Counsel’s investigation and prevent the disclosure of evidence to it, including through public and private contacts with potential witnesses.”

That’s a textbook example of obstruction of justice.

Senator King got it right. “Mueller passed the obstruction question to the Congress and Barr intercepted the pass.“

"evidence.." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


The witnesses Mueller relied upon to reach this conclusion need to testify in public before the House Judiciary Committee so the American people and their elected representatives can assess the extent to which Donny abused the powers of his office to obstruct justice. And if Donny claims he didn’t have corrupt intent, his state of mind is at issue and he also needs to testify under oath before the Committee. —Bob
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#77 Post by tlynn78 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:51 am

[quote]"...and prevent the disclosure of evidence to it..." "That’s a textbook example of obstruction of justice.
[/quote"]

Deleting tens of thousands of emails after they were subpoenaed is actual obstruction of justice.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#78 Post by Bob78164 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:09 am

tlynn78 wrote:
"...and prevent the disclosure of evidence to it..." "That’s a textbook example of obstruction of justice.
[/quote"]

Deleting tens of thousands of emails after they were subpoenaed is actual obstruction of justice.
You’re wrong — obstruction requires intent. You’re also trying to change the subject.

The question currently on the table is whether the House should begin an impeachment investigation. The Mueller Report makes the answer to that question obvious: yes. —Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#79 Post by tlynn78 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:18 am

Bob78164 wrote:
tlynn78 wrote:
"...and prevent the disclosure of evidence to it..." "That’s a textbook example of obstruction of justice.
[/quote"]

Deleting tens of thousands of emails after they were subpoenaed is actual obstruction of justice.
You’re wrong — obstruction requires intent. You’re also trying to change the subject.

The question currently on the table is whether the House should begin an impeachment investigation. The Mueller Report makes the answer to that question obvious: yes. —Bob

You are simply laughable.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#80 Post by Bob78164 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:31 am

tlynn78 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
tlynn78 wrote:
You’re wrong — obstruction requires intent. You’re also trying to change the subject.

The question currently on the table is whether the House should begin an impeachment investigation. The Mueller Report makes the answer to that question obvious: yes. —Bob

You are simply laughable.
I’ll put this in terms even a willfully ignorant Republican can understand. Remember that meeting on the tarmac in Phoenix? They didn’t really talk about grandkids. It was actually Bill Clinton asking Attorney General Lynch to bring the investigation to a quick and quiet close. And it wasn’t really Bill. Candidate Hillary Clinton was on the phone and she did all the talking. And she had President Obama’s ear, so when Attorney General Lynch wouldn’t end the investigation, she got President Obama to fire Director Comey in order to end the investigation.

Flip the parties, and that’s what Mueller found. —Bob
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#81 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:31 pm

tlynn78 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
tlynn78 wrote:
You’re wrong — obstruction requires intent. You’re also trying to change the subject.

The question currently on the table is whether the House should begin an impeachment investigation. The Mueller Report makes the answer to that question obvious: yes. —Bob

You are simply laughable.
Individually he is laughable. Unfortunately, the congress is full of bob-tels. I hate to use this comparison, because it is what they do. But I wonder if this was what it was like watching the nazis take over the German government. Just watching them make a mockery of the rule of law and not being able to do anything about it.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#82 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:40 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: Just watching them make a mockery of the rule of law and not being able to do anything about it.
You mean like not allowing a vote for Merrick Garland?
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#83 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:34 pm

Mueller has delivered his long-awaited report. You reject it. You have your defendant. Now all you're doing is looking, searching for a crime to charge him with. Disgusting. As per Garland, we have already gone over that subject. And the only reason to bring it up here is to validate the fact that this is not about justice, but it is about using politics as a weapon. Let's let Joe Biden discuss Merrick Garland. We would have never heard his name again if Hillary had won. But she didn't.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#84 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:37 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:Mueller has delivered his long-awaited report. You reject it.
As usual, Flock, you've got it almost completely backwards. You and your buddies on the pump up Trump train reject everything in the report except for one sentence.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#85 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:58 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:Mueller has delivered his long-awaited report. You reject it.
As usual, Flock, you've got it almost completely backwards. You and your buddies on the pump up Trump train reject everything in the report except for one sentence.
And I'm SUUUURRRRE there would have been multiple people come forward with disgusting things Merrick did in high school which MUST be believed. Assumption of innocence be damned, right? Or does it only work one way?

And apparently I can't be clear enough for you.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#86 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:27 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: And apparently I can't be clear enough for you.
Flock, you're clear.

And you're also clearly wrong.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#87 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:23 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: And apparently I can't be clear enough for you.
Flock, you're clear.

And you're also clearly wrong.
One more time for the uncomprehending. I am not 'In the tank' for any politician. I am against the democrats, who are 150% more corrupt, intellectually and morally bankrupt than the repubs, who are no paragons themselves. For God's sake polly, can you not get that through your thick skull? You have no answers, only epithets for those who disagree with you. You have no policy except to build your voting base to retain power and you are guilty of everything you so heartily accuse your opposition of. Your party sucks. That is all. If you accuse me of being in the tank for trump again you show yourself as the assshole we all know you are. Can I be any clearer for you?
I don't think I'm wrong. Hannity thinks I'm right, I think, although I haven't checked in with him in awhile.
Your friendly neighborhood racist. On the waiting list to be a nazi. Designated an honorary 'snowflake'. Trolled by the very best, as well as by BJ. Always typical, unlike others.., Fulminator, Hopelessly in the tank for trump... inappropriate... Flocking himself... Probably a tucking sexist, too... All thought comes from the right wing noise machine(TM)... A clear and present threat to The Future Of Our Democracy.. Doesn't understand anything... Made the trump apologist and enabler playoffs... Heathen bastard... Knows nothing about history... Liar.... don't know much about statistics and polling... Nothing at all about biology... Ignorant Bigot... Potential Future Pariah... Big Nerd... Spiraling, Anti-Trans Bigot.. A Lunatic AND a Bigot.. Very Ignorant of the World in General... Sounds deranged... Fake Christian... Weird... has the mind of a child... has paranoid delusions... Simpleton

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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#88 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:10 pm

“You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role . . . because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”

So by this test, all the Senate has to do (after impeachment by the House, of course) is determine whether firing the FBI Director in order to end an investigation, and pressing witnesses to give false testimony, is or is not "clearly out of bounds."

Who said it?
Spoiler
Sen. Lindsay Graham, in 1999
. --Bob
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#89 Post by BackInTex » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:39 pm

Bob78164 wrote:“You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role . . . because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”

So by this test, all the Senate has to do (after impeachment by the House, of course) is determine whether firing the FBI Director in order to end an investigation, and pressing witnesses to give false testimony, is or is not "clearly out of bounds."

Who said it?
Spoiler
Sen. Lindsay Graham, in 1999
. --Bob
Spoiler
What-a-bout
Sen. Lindsay Graham.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#90 Post by jarnon » Wed May 29, 2019 12:31 pm

Mr. Mueller made these comments today:
Robert S. Mueller III wrote:Good morning, everyone, and thank you for being here. Two years ago, the acting attorney general asked me to serve as special counsel and he created the special counsel’s office. The appointment order directed the office to investigate Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. This included investigating any links or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump campaign.

Now, I have not spoken publicly during our investigation. I am speaking out today because our investigation is complete. The attorney general has made the report on our investigation largely public. We are formally closing the special counsel’s office, and as well, I’m resigning from the Department of Justice to return to private life. I’ll make a few remarks about the results of our work. But beyond these few remarks, it is important that the office’s written work speak for itself. Let me begin where the appointment order begins, and that is interference in the 2016 presidential election.

As alleged by the grand jury in an indictment, Russian intelligence officers who are part of the Russian military, launched a concerted attack on our political system. The indictment alleges that they used sophisticated cybertechniques to hack into computers and networks used by the Clinton campaign. They stole private information and then released that information through fake online identities and through the organization WikiLeaks.

The releases were designed and timed to interfere with our election and to damage a presidential candidate. And at the same time, as the grand jury alleged in a separate indictment, a private Russian entity engaged in a social media operation, where Russian citizens posed as Americans in order to influence an election. These indictments contain allegations, and we are not commenting on the guilt or the innocence of any specific defendant. Every defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty.

The indictments allege, and the other activities in our report describe, efforts to interfere in our political system. They needed to be investigated and understood. And that is among the reasons why the Department of Justice established our office. That is also a reason we investigated efforts to obstruct the investigation. The matters we investigated were of paramount importance. It was critical for us to obtain full and accurate information from every person we questioned. When a subject of an investigation obstructs that investigation or lies to investigators, it strikes at the core of their government’s effort to find the truth and hold wrongdoers accountable.

Let me say a word about the report. The report has two parts, addressing the two main issues we were asked to investigate. The first volume of the report details numerous efforts emanating from Russia to influence the election. This volume includes a discussion of the Trump campaign’s response to this activity, as well as our conclusion that there was insufficient evidence to charge a broader conspiracy. And in the second volume, the report describes the results and analysis of our obstruction of justice investigation involving the president.

The order appointing me special counsel authorized us to investigate actions that could obstruct the investigation. We conducted that investigation, and we kept the office of the acting attorney general apprised of the progress of our work. And as set forth in the report, after that investigation, if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime.

The introduction to the Volume II of our report explains that decision. It explains that under longstanding department policy, a president cannot be charged with a federal crime while he is in office. That is unconstitutional. Even if the charge is kept under seal and hidden from public view, that, too, is prohibited. A special counsel’s office is part of the Department of Justice, and by regulation, it was bound by that department policy. Charging the president with a crime was therefore not an option we could consider. The department’s written opinion explaining the policy makes several important points that further informed our handling of the obstruction investigation. Those points are summarized in our report, and I will describe two of them for you.

First, the opinion explicitly permits the investigation of a sitting president, because it is important to preserve evidence while memories are fresh and documents available. Among other things, that evidence could be used if there were co-conspirators who could be charged now.

And second, the opinion says that the Constitution requires a process other than the criminal justice system to formally accuse a sitting president of wrongdoing. And beyond department policy, we were guided by principles of fairness. It would be unfair to potentially — it would be unfair to potentially accuse somebody of a crime when there can be no court resolution of the actual charge.

So that was Justice Department policy. Those were the principles under which we operated. And from them, we concluded that we would not reach a determination one way or the other about whether the president committed a crime. That is the office’s final position, and we will not comment on any other conclusions or hypotheticals about the president. We conducted an independent criminal investigation and reported the results to the attorney general, as required by department regulations.

The attorney general then concluded that it was appropriate to provide our report to Congress and to the American people. At one point in time, I requested that certain portions of the report be released and the attorney general preferred to make — preferred to make the entire report public all at once and we appreciate that the attorney general made the report largely public. And I certainly do not question the attorney general’s good faith in that decision.

Now, I hope and expect this to be the only time that I will speak to you in this manner. I am making that decision myself. No one has told me whether I can or should testify or speak further about this matter. There has been discussion about an appearance before Congress. Any testimony from this office would not go beyond our report. It contains our findings and analysis and the reasons for the decisions we made. We chose those words carefully, and the work speaks for itself. And the report is my testimony. I would not provide information beyond that which is already public in any appearance before Congress. In addition, access to our underlying work product is being decided in a process that does not involve our office.

So beyond what I’ve said here today and what is contained in our written work, I do not believe it is appropriate for me to speak further about the investigation or to comment on the actions of the Justice Department or Congress. And it’s for that reason I will not be taking questions today, as well.

Now, before I step away, I want to thank the attorneys, the F.B.I. agents, the analysts, the professional staff who helped us conduct this investigation in a fair and independent manner. These individuals who spent nearly two years with the special counsel’s office were of the highest integrity. And I will close by reiterating the central allegation of our indictments, that there were multiple, systemic efforts to interfere in our election. And that allegation deserves the attention of every American. Thank you. Thank you for being here today.
Some takeaways:
  • Mueller's work at DOJ is done and he's returning to private life.
  • Charging the President is not only contrary to DOJ policy or illegal, it's unconstitutional.
  • But it's OK to investigate the President and preserve the evidence (in case he's impeached, or indicted after he leaves office).
  • Mueller's report is complete and he has nothing to add. So if he testifies to Congress, he'll just repeat or paraphrase what the report says. (Some members of Congress still want him to testify because their constituents are more likely to watch him on TV than read a written report.)
Last edited by jarnon on Wed May 29, 2019 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#91 Post by Bob78164 » Wed May 29, 2019 1:05 pm

jarnon wrote:Charging the President is not only contrary to DOJ policy or illegal, it's unconstitutional.
To be precise, it's Justice Department policy that such an indictment would be unconstitutional. No court has reached that conclusion. --Bob
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#92 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed May 29, 2019 1:14 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
jarnon wrote:Charging the President is not only contrary to DOJ policy or illegal, it's unconstitutional.
To be precise, it's Justice Department policy that such an indictment would be unconstitutional. No court has reached that conclusion. --Bob
The only way a court could reach that conclusion would be if the Justice Department brought an action and the President raised that as a defense. And I don't see that as happening, no matter who is President.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#93 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Wed May 29, 2019 1:25 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
jarnon wrote:Charging the President is not only contrary to DOJ policy or illegal, it's unconstitutional.
To be precise, it's Justice Department policy that such an indictment would be unconstitutional. No court has reached that conclusion. --Bob
So if they were looking to find out if trump 'colluded' with the russians, and they knew they couldn't charge him with a crime even if they found one, which apparently they didn't, what the fuck was the 2 years and umpteen millions of dollars about?
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#94 Post by Bob78164 » Wed May 29, 2019 1:29 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
jarnon wrote:Charging the President is not only contrary to DOJ policy or illegal, it's unconstitutional.
To be precise, it's Justice Department policy that such an indictment would be unconstitutional. No court has reached that conclusion. --Bob
So if they were looking to find out if trump 'colluded' with the russians, and they knew they couldn't charge him with a crime even if they found one, which apparently they didn't, what the fuck was the 2 years and umpteen millions of dollars about?
We were supposed to ignore foreign interference with our elections? We were supposed to ignore evidence that could lead to Donny's indictment after his term or his impeachment during his term? Did you bother reading or listening to Mueller's statement, which jarnon reproduced here in full?

And by the way, given the seizures from Paul Manafort resulting from his criminal convictions, my understanding is that the Special Counsel's office ended up as a profit center for the government. It certainly cost less than Donny's golf trips to date. --Bob
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#95 Post by Bob78164 » Wed May 29, 2019 1:30 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
jarnon wrote:Charging the President is not only contrary to DOJ policy or illegal, it's unconstitutional.
To be precise, it's Justice Department policy that such an indictment would be unconstitutional. No court has reached that conclusion. --Bob
The only way a court could reach that conclusion would be if the Justice Department brought an action and the President raised that as a defense. And I don't see that as happening, no matter who is President.
That's not the only way. If a former holder of the office (let's call him Donny) were indicted after his term and asserted the statute of limitations as a defense, the government's response would almost certainly be that the statute of limitations is tolled because of this supposed unconstitutionality. So a court could reach the issue that way. --Bob
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#96 Post by BackInTex » Wed May 29, 2019 1:33 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:To be precise, it's Justice Department policy that such an indictment would be unconstitutional. No court has reached that conclusion. --Bob
The only way a court could reach that conclusion would be if the Justice Department brought an action and the President raised that as a defense. And I don't see that as happening, no matter who is President.
That's not the only way. If a former holder of the office (let's call him Donny) were indicted after his term and asserted the statute of limitations as a defense, the government's response would almost certainly be that the statute of limitations is tolled because of this supposed unconstitutionality. So a court could reach the issue that way. --Bob
Guess we'll have to wait until 2025 to see if this is a possibility.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#97 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed May 29, 2019 1:39 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: what the fuck was the 2 years and umpteen millions of dollars about?
What the two years was about was seeing about (1) who might have conspired along with Trump (if you'll recall, Nixon never went to jail on Watergate but a lot of his buddies did) and (2) laying out the evidence so that Congress would do its job and impeach the President. That may well prove to be futile as long as the Republican Senate is willing to give Trump a blank check, but you can't fault Mueller for laying out the evidence of obstruction of justice.
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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#98 Post by jarnon » Wed May 29, 2019 1:51 pm

For those BBs who'd rather watch than read their news:

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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#99 Post by BackInTex » Wed May 29, 2019 2:06 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote: what the fuck was the 2 years and umpteen millions of dollars about?
What the two years was about was seeing about (1) who might have conspired along with Trump (if you'll recall, Nixon never went to jail on Watergate but a lot of his buddies did) and (2) laying out the evidence so that Congress would do its job and impeach the President. That may well prove to be futile as long as the Republican Senate is willing to give Trump a blank check, but you can't fault Mueller for laying out the evidence of obstruction of justice.

LOL

What did Trump do that was more obstructive than destroying an email server and phones that were subjects of an "investigation {wink} {wink}"?

Also, where in the Mueller report did he discuss the dossier that was used to obtain the FISA warrants? Any investigation of alleged misdeeds should certainly include the evidence that led up to the need for an investigation.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Mueller has delivered his report

#100 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed May 29, 2019 2:24 pm

BackInTex wrote: Any investigation of alleged misdeeds should certainly include the evidence that led up to the need for an investigation.
You are aware that much of what was in the Steele dossier has been verified and that several courts have approved the various warrants were issued.
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