McCain Backer Hagee Said Hitler Was Fulfilling God's Will

[mrkelley23]

(even though I do go to church and what not).

That is why I specified the three religions. I have no idea what religion you might be.

I was a good Methodist boy growing up -- (went to the church that Bix goes to now) -- and now go to a Lutheran church. I normally keep my real views to myself on this.

After a lot of searching and thinking everything through, I came to the conclusion that it made more sense to just get back to the basics -- Zeus and them. I guess it's really too late now to do much about the havoc created by those who lost their faith and came up with all this other stuff, but still.

There are Older gods than Zeus, if you want to get REALLY basic. And I ain't talking about Titans, either.

[wbtravis007]

That is why I specified the three religions. I have no idea what religion you might be.

I was a good Methodist boy growing up -- (went to the church that Bix goes to now) -- and now go to a Lutheran church. I normally keep my real views to myself on this.

After a lot of searching and thinking everything through, I came to the conclusion that it made more sense to just get back to the basics -- Zeus and them. I guess it's really too late now to do much about the havoc created by those who lost their faith and came up with all this other stuff, but still.

There are Older gods than Zeus, if you want to get REALLY basic. And I ain't talking about Titans, either.

Yeah. I know. I just have pity for those poor souls who believed in them, though. Hades doesn't sound too good.

[Bob78164]

That is why I specified the three religions. I have no idea what religion you might be.

I was a good Methodist boy growing up -- (went to the church that Bix goes to now) -- and now go to a Lutheran church. I normally keep my real views to myself on this.

After a lot of searching and thinking everything through, I came to the conclusion that it made more sense to just get back to the basics -- Zeus and them. I guess it's really too late now to do much about the havoc created by those who lost their faith and came up with all this other stuff, but still.

There are Older gods than Zeus, if you want to get REALLY basic. And I ain't talking about Titans, either.

Did you by any chance mean "Elder"? --Bob

[silvercamaro]

Did you by any chance mean "Elder"? --Bob

I do believe we've found the source of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[VAdame]

Did you by any chance mean "Elder"? --Bob

I do believe we've found the source of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Either that or Davey Jones!

[wintergreen48]

BiT --

I am a Catholic.

I do not believe my church is The Great Whore.

Pastor Hagee does.

I find that hateful.

I can see where that might be insulting, maddening, and perhaps hateful towards the Catholic Church leadership, but it is not hateful to the Catholic faithful. But I can see how you might. I'm sure if someone, say WBT might attack my faith, I might see that as hateful, too.

He didn't say that the Church leadership is a whore: he said that the Church is a whore. But even if he had specifically limited it to the leadership, it is still offensive and hateful.

And why is it that so many Baptist preachers are so obsessed with the Catholic Church? My oldest son was an atheist when he was ten, but became a Baptist at 15, and in the year before my sweet Margaret died we usually went to services at his church, and it was odd how often the sermon included some diatribe against the Catholic Church, or Catholic priests, or Catholicism in general-- generally, about one sermon each month included some tirade or other. This was not usually done by the 'regular' preacher at the church, it was always a guest preacher, but it was a different guest preacher each time, and each one of them seemed to have nothing better to do than to criticize a church of which neither he nor any of the congregation (unless you count me) was a member, and which had nothing to do with him or his church.

Must be papal envy or something.

[SportsFan68]

I think Weatherhead would say that what Hitler did was certainly NOT God's intentional will. God's intention - His desire - is that everyone follow Him act in love toward each other. But, sin gets in the way (because God has allowed free will) and therefore God brings good out of the evil that occurs in the world - out of circumstances, therefore God's circumstantial will. Finally, God's Ultimate Will is His omnipotence, that ultimately all creation will be reconciled to Him, every knee will bow, etc.

This is an excellent point, Trevor. Maybe it's answered in the book -- how can any good come out of the evil where children are born, then tortured and killed before they even learn to talk?

[trevor_macfee]

I think Weatherhead would say that what Hitler did was certainly NOT God's intentional will. God's intention - His desire - is that everyone follow Him act in love toward each other. But, sin gets in the way (because God has allowed free will) and therefore God brings good out of the evil that occurs in the world - out of circumstances, therefore God's circumstantial will. Finally, God's Ultimate Will is His omnipotence, that ultimately all creation will be reconciled to Him, every knee will bow, etc.

This is an excellent point, Trevor. Maybe it's answered in the book -- how can any good come out of the evil where children are born, then tortured and killed before they even learn to talk?

I wouldn't even venture to guess. It is certainly beyond my comprehension how any good can come out of such a situation.

(I don't want to use this forum for proselytizing, but answering the question may sound like it. So . . . if such posting offends you please skip the rest of this post.)

But, what I do know is this - that not only is God present where there is pain, but God suffers beside us. We don't have to go through any trial or tragedy on our own. And not only is God with us when we suffer, but God suffers, too. God has chosen to open up to suffering - an amazing thing for the infinite creator of the universe to do! How do I know that - because Jesus - God the Son - experienced not only His own pain but compassion (and even tears) for the pain of others.

I know God is there in suffering, but do I know why any particular pain or suffering occurs? No. Being a pastor with a Master of Divinity Degree does not enable or entitle me to make those judgments. One mistake that Hagee and his ilk consistently make is presuming to answer the "why" questions. They tell us Katrina was because of this or that in New Orleans, or 911 was because of this or that in our country. And, although we are all sinners, the "this or that" is usually some sin(s) not typical of their followers.

But that strays from your question. God is infinite. From our finite perspective, we will never understand God totally. Both Christians and those who do not embrace Christianity oversimplify God - Christians because a God one can explain seems somehow easier to believe in, and non-Christians because a "Straw man God" is easier to tear down.

The Bible and my experience both attest that God does bring good out of suffering. After 15 or so years as an adult atheist, one of the things that resulted in my becoming a Christian was a car accident in which I was injured. Did God use that accident for good? Certainly. Would I ever presume to say that God caused the accident so that I could be a Christian? No - to do so would be arrogant on two levels - that it's "all about me" and that I can explain God's actions - or perhaps more accurately that I can explain the suffering God allows.

I'm writing a book about how I became a Christian. The tentative title is "Too Smart for God." If it's ever published, all this will be explicated in much more detail. For now, about suffering in particular I can recommend Phillip Yancey's "Where is God When it Hurts" and C. S. Lewis's "The Problem of Pain."

[silvercamaro]

Trevor, I do not know how many points in common your theological doctrine has in common with mine, nor do I care. What I do know is that your post was a beautiful statement.

I hope you will finish your book soon, and that it will be published, and that you will sign the copy I have purchased. Mostly -- and this, alas, is "all about me" -- I look forward to reading it.

[hf_jai]

Any believer in an omnipotent God would have to believe Hitler WAS fulfilling His will. How could it not be? It doesn't mean that God commanded Hitler, but it does mean he at least allowed it. If it was not his will he would have stopped it.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims should all believe this.

There could be different rationales for why it was God's will, but the fact that it was his will should not be disputed among the three religions.

Jews do not believe this way, BiT. There may be a few who do, but I've never met any. While Judaism is not belief-oriented and so does not have official doctrine in the same what that Christian denomination do, most of us believe that all human beings exercise complete free will in whether we sin or not. Not even God is so powerful as to take that away.

[BackInTex]

Any believer in an omnipotent God would have to believe Hitler WAS fulfilling His will. How could it not be? It doesn't mean that God commanded Hitler, but it does mean he at least allowed it. If it was not his will he would have stopped it.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims should all believe this.

There could be different rationales for why it was God's will, but the fact that it was his will should not be disputed among the three religions.

Jews do not believe this way, BiT. There may be a few who do, but I've never met any. While Judaism is not belief-oriented and so does not have official doctrine in the same what that Christian denomination do, most of us believe that all human beings exercise complete free will in whether we sin or not. Not even God is so powerful as to take that away.

You're telling me Jews do not believe God is powerful enough to have stopped Hitler if he wanted? Or that if someone wants a certain outcome and they have complete control over that outcome, but they allow a different outcome, for some reason, that was not their will?

[SportsFan68]

I wouldn't even venture to guess. It is certainly beyond my comprehension how any good can come out of such a situation.

(I don't want to use this forum for proselytizing, but answering the question may sound like it. So . . . if such posting offends you please skip the rest of this post.)

But, what I do know is this - that not only is God present where there is pain, but God suffers beside us. We don't have to go through any trial or tragedy on our own. And not only is God with us when we suffer, but God suffers, too. God has chosen to open up to suffering - an amazing thing for the infinite creator of the universe to do! How do I know that - because Jesus - God the Son - experienced not only His own pain but compassion (and even tears) for the pain of others.

Very good answer, Trevor. Thank you.

[hf_jai]

Any believer in an omnipotent God would have to believe Hitler WAS fulfilling His will. How could it not be? It doesn't mean that God commanded Hitler, but it does mean he at least allowed it. If it was not his will he would have stopped it.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims should all believe this.

There could be different rationales for why it was God's will, but the fact that it was his will should not be disputed among the three religions.

Jews do not believe this way, BiT. There may be a few who do, but I've never met any. While Judaism is not belief-oriented and so does not have official doctrine in the same what that Christian denomination do, most of us believe that all human beings exercise complete free will in whether we sin or not. Not even God is so powerful as to take that away.

You're telling me Jews do not believe God is powerful enough to have stopped Hitler if he wanted? Or that if someone wants a certain outcome and they have complete control over that outcome, but they allow a different outcome, for some reason, that was not their will?

You are framing the question from a Christian perspective. The Jewish view would likely be that God created man to have free will and that's the way it is.

It was God's will that that Hitler had the choice, not that Hitler chose the way he did. If He had intervened, either way, it would change the very nature of His creation.

[silverscreenselect]

It was God's will that that Hitler had the choice, not that Hitler chose the way he did. If He had intervened, either way, it would change the very nature of His creation.

That's how I have a lot of difficulty squaring the Biblical story with modern day events.

Was Hitler less evil that the people of Sodom and Gomorroh or the Egyptians at the Red Sea? God sure didn't have any problems making them pay for what they'd done wrong.

According to the Bible, we have God and Jesus going around for hundreds of years (Jesus only during his lifetime of course) and performing all sorts of miracles helping the good and punishing the evil and now for two thousand years, nothing.

If meddling in human affairs for a few thousand years was okay, why isn't it now?

[SportsFan68]

It was God's will that that Hitler had the choice, not that Hitler chose the way he did. If He had intervened, either way, it would change the very nature of His creation.

That's how I have a lot of difficulty squaring the Biblical story with modern day events.

Was Hitler less evil that the people of Sodom and Gomorroh or the Egyptians at the Red Sea? God sure didn't have any problems making them pay for what they'd done wrong.

According to the Bible, we have God and Jesus going around for hundreds of years (Jesus only during his lifetime of course) and performing all sorts of miracles helping the good and punishing the evil and now for two thousand years, nothing.

If meddling in human affairs for a few thousand years was okay, why isn't it now?

SSS ask another very good question.

Another thing I wonder about, if it's now OK to allow gay men to go on living when the Bible spells out that they must be put to death, why is it still a bad thing for them to be gay and behave accordingly?

[hf_jai]

It was God's will that that Hitler had the choice, not that Hitler chose the way he did. If He had intervened, either way, it would change the very nature of His creation.

That's how I have a lot of difficulty squaring the Biblical story with modern day events.

Was Hitler less evil that the people of Sodom and Gomorroh or the Egyptians at the Red Sea? God sure didn't have any problems making them pay for what they'd done wrong.

According to the Bible, we have God and Jesus going around for hundreds of years (Jesus only during his lifetime of course) and performing all sorts of miracles helping the good and punishing the evil and now for two thousand years, nothing.

If meddling in human affairs for a few thousand years was okay, why isn't it now?

Well, personally, I don't take the biblical stories literally (and fwiw, Jesus is not in my Bible). Most of us don't, even among the Orthodox. That's why most Orthodox Jews have no problem with evolution or any other scientific theory that contradicts a literal interpretation of scripture. [I'm not counting the sects who don't want anything to do with any kind of secular learning or science. They are an aberration in Jewish tradition imo.]