Black + white = ?

[mrkelley23]

I know people want things to be nice and simple, black or white, easily pinned. But something as complex as the Israel-Gaza situation is not. Let me just do a little stream-of-consciousness on my thought processes for y'all to snipe at.

I've always considered myself a supporter of Israel. Still do, as a matter of fact. And the facts support a massive response to Oct. 7. Palestinians, in what was apparently a free and fair election, voted for Hamas earlier in this century to lead them over Fatah, despite being warned that it was likely the last election they would ever vote in. That prophecy was fulfilled almost immediately. Hamas, as a terrorist organization, has used absolutely reprehensible actions to try to further its goals -- citizen shields, putting command posts in hospitals, etc. The fact that they wouldn't agree to any kind of cease-fire agreement until Israel made it absolutely clear they were going to move on Rafah is telling, as well. And even then, they "agreed" to a proposal that apparently wasn't even on the table.

But there are two features of Israel's actions in this conflict that have shaken me quite a bit. First, their absolute determination to keep all journalists (not just the ones with Palestinian ties) out of the war zone. That means that the only pictures and stories we're seeing are almost by definition propaganda. IDF has pursued, harassed, and even killed non-combatant journalists to a much greater degree than in any other military action since the world began treating journalists as important. We could not get the full story on the hostages who were killed by IDF, because there were no journalists to report the story. Second, and I may be drawing a false conclusion with this one, but I am convinced that Israel's official policy is to prevent any aid from reaching Gaza, even if it means killing aid workers. The killing of the World Central Kitchen volunteers is just the latest and most egregious example of this.


Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Yes, they engage in absolutely reprehensible and unforgivable behavior. I would not shed a tear if everyone who identifies as a member of Hamas were eradicated. But when a nation stoops to the same level of activity -- and yes, I consider murdering non-combatant journalists and aid workers to be on a par with Hamas's actions -- it at least gives me great pause.

Finally, what worries me even more than war actions several thousand miles from our shores is the active malicious actions of our enemies on social media. Americans have proven they are, at best, unsophisticated at identifying foreign propaganda when it comes to social media. I guarantee that Russia, China, North Korea, and probably several other countries, are seeding our media with attacks on both sides of this war. It helps them to divide us even more. And that may be the enduring legacy of this war, or conflict, or whatever the history books wind up calling it, for America.

[tlynn78]

I know people want things to be nice and simple, black or white, easily pinned. But something as complex as the Israel-Gaza situation is not. Let me just do a little stream-of-consciousness on my thought processes for y'all to snipe at.

I've always considered myself a supporter of Israel. Still do, as a matter of fact. And the facts support a massive response to Oct. 7. Palestinians, in what was apparently a free and fair election, voted for Hamas earlier in this century to lead them over Fatah, despite being warned that it was likely the last election they would ever vote in. That prophecy was fulfilled almost immediately. Hamas, as a terrorist organization, has used absolutely reprehensible actions to try to further its goals -- citizen shields, putting command posts in hospitals, etc. The fact that they wouldn't agree to any kind of cease-fire agreement until Israel made it absolutely clear they were going to move on Rafah is telling, as well. And even then, they "agreed" to a proposal that apparently wasn't even on the table.

But there are two features of Israel's actions in this conflict that have shaken me quite a bit. First, their absolute determination to keep all journalists (not just the ones with Palestinian ties) out of the war zone. That means that the only pictures and stories we're seeing are almost by definition propaganda. IDF has pursued, harassed, and even killed non-combatant journalists to a much greater degree than in any other military action since the world began treating journalists as important. We could not get the full story on the hostages who were killed by IDF, because there were no journalists to report the story. Second, and I may be drawing a false conclusion with this one, but I am convinced that Israel's official policy is to prevent any aid from reaching Gaza, even if it means killing aid workers. The killing of the World Central Kitchen volunteers is just the latest and most egregious example of this.


Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Yes, they engage in absolutely reprehensible and unforgivable behavior. I would not shed a tear if everyone who identifies as a member of Hamas were eradicated. But when a nation stoops to the same level of activity -- and yes, I consider murdering non-combatant journalists and aid workers to be on a par with Hamas's actions -- it at least gives me great pause.

Finally, what worries me even more than war actions several thousand miles from our shores is the active malicious actions of our enemies on social media. Americans have proven they are, at best, unsophisticated at identifying foreign propaganda when it comes to social media. I guarantee that Russia, China, North Korea, and probably several other countries, are seeding our media with attacks on both sides of this war. It helps them to divide us even more. And that may be the enduring legacy of this war, or conflict, or whatever the history books wind up calling it, for America.

And that social media aspect is exactly why Israel should handle Hamas how they see fit.

[BackInTex]

[quote=mrkelley23 post_id=607473 time=<a href="tel:1715127385">1715127385</a> user_id=47]
I know people want things to be nice and simple, black or white, easily pinned. But something as complex as the Israel-Gaza situation is not. Let me just do a little stream-of-consciousness on my thought processes for y'all to snipe at.

I've always considered myself a supporter of Israel. Still do, as a matter of fact. And the facts support a massive response to Oct. 7. Palestinians, in what was apparently a free and fair election, voted for Hamas earlier in this century to lead them over Fatah, despite being warned that it was likely the last election they would ever vote in. That prophecy was fulfilled almost immediately. Hamas, as a terrorist organization, has used absolutely reprehensible actions to try to further its goals -- citizen shields, putting command posts in hospitals, etc. The fact that they wouldn't agree to any kind of cease-fire agreement until Israel made it absolutely clear they were going to move on Rafah is telling, as well. And even then, they "agreed" to a proposal that apparently wasn't even on the table.

But there are two features of Israel's actions in this conflict that have shaken me quite a bit. First, their absolute determination to keep all journalists (not just the ones with Palestinian ties) out of the war zone. That means that the only pictures and stories we're seeing are almost by definition propaganda. IDF has pursued, harassed, and even killed non-combatant journalists to a much greater degree than in any other military action since the world began treating journalists as important. We could not get the full story on the hostages who were killed by IDF, because there were no journalists to report the story. Second, and I may be drawing a false conclusion with this one, but I am convinced that Israel's official policy is to prevent any aid from reaching Gaza, even if it means killing aid workers. The killing of the World Central Kitchen volunteers is just the latest and most egregious example of this.


Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Yes, they engage in absolutely reprehensible and unforgivable behavior. I would not shed a tear if everyone who identifies as a member of Hamas were eradicated. But when a nation stoops to the same level of activity -- and yes, I consider murdering non-combatant journalists and aid workers to be on a par with Hamas's actions -- it at least gives me great pause.

Finally, what worries me even more than war actions several thousand miles from our shores is the active malicious actions of our enemies on social media. Americans have proven they are, at best, unsophisticated at identifying foreign propaganda when it comes to social media. I guarantee that Russia, China, North Korea, and probably several other countries, are seeding our media with attacks on both sides of this war. It helps them to divide us even more. And that may be the enduring legacy of this war, or conflict, or whatever the history books wind up calling it, for America.

And that social media aspect is exactly why Israel should handle Hamas how they see fit.
[/quote]

And not allow journalists to misportray their actions.

[silverscreenselect]

And not allow journalists to misportray their actions.

As a rule, armies that commit war crimes don't want journalists to document their actions. You didn't see any reporters with the Russian troops when they were raping Ukrainian women.

[silverscreenselect]

And that social media aspect is exactly why Israel should handle Hamas how they see fit.

The issue isn't how Israel should handle Hamas. It's how they are "handling" the thousands of Palestinian civilians that are in their path.

[flockofseagulls104]

And that social media aspect is exactly why Israel should handle Hamas how they see fit.

The issue isn't how Israel should handle Hamas. It's how they are "handling" the thousands of Palestinian civilians that are in their path.

It's incredibly frustrating reading your posts, because you are like episodic television. You never retain any continuity.

HAMAS IS SHEILDING THEMSELVES USING THEIR OWN PEOPLE. THEY DRESS LIKE CIVILIANS, THEY ACT LIKE CIVILIANS AND THEY DON'T GIVE A FUCK HOW MANY OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE THEY KILL THAT WAY.

Now, see if you can retain that and not make any more posts that ignore that FACT, like you never heard it before.

Israel KNOWS how the media want to and will portray anything they do. NEGATIVELY.

[wbtravis007]

I know people want things to be nice and simple, black or white, easily pinned. But something as complex as the Israel-Gaza situation is not. Let me just do a little stream-of-consciousness on my thought processes for y'all to snipe at.

I've always considered myself a supporter of Israel. Still do, as a matter of fact. And the facts support a massive response to Oct. 7. Palestinians, in what was apparently a free and fair election, voted for Hamas earlier in this century to lead them over Fatah, despite being warned that it was likely the last election they would ever vote in. That prophecy was fulfilled almost immediately. Hamas, as a terrorist organization, has used absolutely reprehensible actions to try to further its goals -- citizen shields, putting command posts in hospitals, etc. The fact that they wouldn't agree to any kind of cease-fire agreement until Israel made it absolutely clear they were going to move on Rafah is telling, as well. And even then, they "agreed" to a proposal that apparently wasn't even on the table.

But there are two features of Israel's actions in this conflict that have shaken me quite a bit. First, their absolute determination to keep all journalists (not just the ones with Palestinian ties) out of the war zone. That means that the only pictures and stories we're seeing are almost by definition propaganda. IDF has pursued, harassed, and even killed non-combatant journalists to a much greater degree than in any other military action since the world began treating journalists as important. We could not get the full story on the hostages who were killed by IDF, because there were no journalists to report the story. Second, and I may be drawing a false conclusion with this one, but I am convinced that Israel's official policy is to prevent any aid from reaching Gaza, even if it means killing aid workers. The killing of the World Central Kitchen volunteers is just the latest and most egregious example of this.


Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Yes, they engage in absolutely reprehensible and unforgivable behavior. I would not shed a tear if everyone who identifies as a member of Hamas were eradicated. But when a nation stoops to the same level of activity -- and yes, I consider murdering non-combatant journalists and aid workers to be on a par with Hamas's actions -- it at least gives me great pause.

Finally, what worries me even more than war actions several thousand miles from our shores is the active malicious actions of our enemies on social media. Americans have proven they are, at best, unsophisticated at identifying foreign propaganda when it comes to social media. I guarantee that Russia, China, North Korea, and probably several other countries, are seeding our media with attacks on both sides of this war. It helps them to divide us even more. And that may be the enduring legacy of this war, or conflict, or whatever the history books wind up calling it, for America.

Thanks for this thoughtful post.

Yours and ear’s thoughts always seem like a wonderful breath of fresh air to me here.

Here’s hoping you’ll both keep them coming more often.

I’m reminded of Dean Martin’s weekly request: Keep those cards and letters coming!

[silverscreenselect]

HAMAS IS SHEILDING THEMSELVES USING THEIR OWN PEOPLE. THEY DRESS LIKE CIVILIANS, THEY ACT LIKE CIVILIANS AND THEY DON'T GIVE A FUCK HOW MANY OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE THEY KILL THAT WAY.

So I guess the only thing Israel can do is kill everyone in Gaza and then blame Hamas for hiding among the innocent civilians.

[Weyoun]

I am still confused by the point being made by flock and others.

So you are really saying that, because people are being used as human shields, Israel is not blameworthy at all for firing those weapons?

Or are you saying, because human shields are being used, Israel MUST kill these folks, to make the use of such human shields less effective in the future?

Just to be clear, you are saying Israel KNOWS many civilians will die either way.

[BackInTex]

I am still confused by the point being made by flock and others.

So you are really saying that, because people are being used as human shields, Israel is not blameworthy at all for firing those weapons?

Or are you saying, because human shields are being used, Israel MUST kill these folks, to make the use of such human shields less effective in the future?

Just to be clear, you are saying Israel KNOWS many civilians will die either way.

Sohpie's choice?

Imagine this scenario.
A perp has a gun and is sheilding himself behind his child. Meanwhile, you also have a gun, and your three kids are with you. You are in the open and have no cover or opportunity to retreat to cover. The perp starts shooting your kids.

Do you shoot at the perp knowing that the only sure way to elimninat the threat to your kids is to shoot the perp's child? Or do you not shoot the perp's child, because that is wrong, and let the perp shoot and kill your three kids?

[Weyoun]

I am still confused by the point being made by flock and others.

So you are really saying that, because people are being used as human shields, Israel is not blameworthy at all for firing those weapons?

Or are you saying, because human shields are being used, Israel MUST kill these folks, to make the use of such human shields less effective in the future?

Just to be clear, you are saying Israel KNOWS many civilians will die either way.

Sohpie's choice?

Imagine this scenario.
A perp has a gun and is sheilding himself behind his child. Meanwhile, you also have a gun, and your three kids are with you. You are in the open and have no cover or opportunity to retreat to cover. The perp starts shooting your kids.

Do you shoot at the perp knowing that the only sure way to elimninat the threat to your kids is to shoot the perp's child? Or do you not shoot the perp's child, because that is wrong, and let the perp shoot and kill your three kids?

No, it would be like the perpetrator hiding behind a kid, so you respond by using weapons that might kill that kid, but also could kill the neighbor’s kid, or several other people.

Also, saying that three of your kids are in danger, and one child of the perpetrator’s is in danger, completely misses the point. It’s not just that war leads to tragic decisions and people will die, it’s also that there is an element of proportionality that some people feel is being ignored by defenders of ANYTHING Israel does. When the Palestinian civilian casualties are in the tens of thousands, and it seems that not many Hamas fighters are being killed, to say you are trying to kill the perpetrator tells me you, at best, have terrible aim.

Unless of course you assume that all Palestinians by definition are suspect and can be killed…

[Ritterskoop]

Two things can be true at the same time.

Hamas = very bad.
Netanyahu = very bad.

If we could remove both, all of the solutions become possible.

[mrkelley23]

Two things can be true at the same time.

Hamas = very bad.
Netanyahu = very bad.

If we could remove both, all of the solutions become possible.

Netanyahu certainly has his issues, but I think Americans might be surprised by what happens if he is replaced. First, the most likely replacement, Benny Ganz, is at least as much a hawk on Palestinian issues as Bibi. I wouldn't expect much of a change in how the war is pursued other than maybe some placating of allies that Netanyahu can't do because of his coalition. Second, the war effort is much more diffuse in Israel than it is in the US. And the War Cabinet has been fairly united, if not unanimous, in the promotion of the tactics and strategies in Gaza.

[flockofseagulls104]

Two things can be true at the same time.

Hamas = very bad.
Netanyahu = very bad.

If we could remove both, all of the solutions become possible.

Please enlighten me on why you think Netanyahu is 'very bad'.
Yes, Israel was unprepared for the Hamas atrocities, and the buck stops with him.
Yes, I know he was subjected to lawfare much like what trump is subjected to.
But this extreme opposition to Netanyahu started several years ago.

As far as I know, the main argument against him is that he is what we term as a conservative. He is a supporter of Trump and Bolsonaro and other conservative leaders the left hates, and the left hates him for that.

So give me specific reasons why YOU think he is 'very bad'. What are your charges against him. Don't just repeat the memes.

[jarnon]

So give me specific reasons why YOU think he is 'very bad'. What are your charges against him. Don't just repeat the memes.

If Ritterskoop doesn’t mind me interjecting, I have issues with Bibi too. I'll leave out political differences since those aren’t what make him very bad.

Since early 2023, Bibi has promoted an overhaul of Israeli government that will strip the courts of authority to review government decisions, even those that violate citizens' rights or are blatantly corrupt.

He has undermined the Palestinian Authority, allowed Israeli settlers to seize Palestinian land, etc., to destroy the possibility of a peace agreement.

He reneged on an deal that his government approved for fair treatment of different branches of Judaism.

He leads a government coalition that includes unapologetic racists.

As for charges, he's indicted for breach of trust, accepting bribes, and fraud.

Still, that doesn't put him in the same category as Hamas, whom I would describe as horrible.

[BackInTex]

I am still confused by the point being made by flock and others.

So you are really saying that, because people are being used as human shields, Israel is not blameworthy at all for firing those weapons?

Or are you saying, because human shields are being used, Israel MUST kill these folks, to make the use of such human shields less effective in the future?

Just to be clear, you are saying Israel KNOWS many civilians will die either way.

Sohpie's choice?

Imagine this scenario.
A perp has a gun and is sheilding himself behind his child. Meanwhile, you also have a gun, and your three kids are with you. You are in the open and have no cover or opportunity to retreat to cover. The perp starts shooting your kids.

Do you shoot at the perp knowing that the only sure way to elimninat the threat to your kids is to shoot the perp's child? Or do you not shoot the perp's child, because that is wrong, and let the perp shoot and kill your three kids?

No, it would be like the perpetrator hiding behind a kid, so you respond by using weapons that might kill that kid, but also could kill the neighbor’s kid, or several other people.

Also, saying that three of your kids are in danger, and one child of the perpetrator’s is in danger, completely misses the point. It’s not just that war leads to tragic decisions and people will die, it’s also that there is an element of proportionality that some people feel is being ignored by defenders of ANYTHING Israel does. When the Palestinian civilian casualties are in the tens of thousands, and it seems that not many Hamas fighters are being killed, to say you are trying to kill the perpetrator tells me you, at best, have terrible aim.

Unless of course you assume that all Palestinians by definition are suspect and can be killed…

A couple things I will note:

saying that three of your kids are in danger, and one child of the perpetrator’s is in danger, completely misses the point.

I don't think the point is missed. The populatin of Gaza to Israel is about 1 to 13. I'll assume the ratios of children are simlar to the perp's one child to your 13. To protect 13 kids you might have to sacrifice one of theirs.

there is an element of proportionality that some people feel is being ignored by defenders of ANYTHING Israel does.

Ignoring the YELLING and your continued exaggeration of others' position regarding Israel, what is the limit on how many Palestinian civilians can be killed. You must have a number if you think the limit has been exceeded. Once reached, should Israel just stop?

it seems that not many Hamas fighters are being killed,

I don't know. I think plenty are being killed. Again, what is "not many" and what source are you getting that subjective amount from? If not enough of them have been killed, then what tactics should Israel do to be more successful with less collateral damage?

Unless of course you assume that all Palestinians by definition are suspect and can be killed…

No, but Hamas is the elected government of the Palestinian people. Maybe there is a lesson there.

[flockofseagulls104]

So give me specific reasons why YOU think he is 'very bad'. What are your charges against him. Don't just repeat the memes.

If Ritterskoop doesn’t mind me interjecting, I have issues with Bibi too. I'll leave out political differences since those aren’t what make him very bad.

Since early 2023, Bibi has promoted an overhaul of Israeli government that will strip the courts of authority to review government decisions, even those that violate citizens' rights or are blatantly corrupt.

He has undermined the Palestinian Authority, allowed Israeli settlers to seize Palestinian land, etc., to destroy the possibility of a peace agreement.

He reneged on an deal that his government approved for fair treatment of different branches of Judaism.

He leads a government coalition that includes unapologetic racists.

As for charges, he's indicted for breach of trust, accepting bribes, and fraud.

Still, that doesn't put him in the same category as Hamas, whom I would describe as horrible.

Just your inclusion of the line about 'racists' dilutes your credibility. That word's definition has been so corrupted it means nothing anymore.

Still, he is the legitimate Prime Minister. It is up to the people of Israel to change that. Not you. Not us. Not the leftists. And certainly not the MSM, which you, apparently, from that racist comment, are relying on for most of your information. I happen to think he is a hero.

[jarnon]

He leads a government coalition that includes unapologetic racists.

Just your inclusion of the line about 'racists' dilutes your credibility. That word's definition has been so corrupted it means nothing anymore.

National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir was convicted of inciting racism and supporting a terrorist organization in 2008.

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich said in 2022, “I may be a far-right person, a homophobe, racist, fascist, but my word is my bond.”

They don’t try to hide it. It’s part of their appeal. Even though Bibi disagrees with their most extreme views, he put them in his cabinet anyway.

[flockofseagulls104]

He leads a government coalition that includes unapologetic racists.

Just your inclusion of the line about 'racists' dilutes your credibility. That word's definition has been so corrupted it means nothing anymore.

National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir was convicted of inciting racism and supporting a terrorist organization in 2008.

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich said in 2022, “I may be a far-right person, a homophobe, racist, fascist, but my word is my bond.”

They don’t try to hide it. It’s part of their appeal. Even though Bibi disagrees with their most extreme views, he put them in his cabinet anyway.

The political system in Israel is much different than ours. There are many different parties and to form a government, they have to form a coalition. There is no election for Prime Minister. Ben-Gvir is the leader of the Otzma Yehudit party, which garnered enough seats to have a seat in a coalition government that was negotiated putting Netanyahu as Prime Minister. If we had that kind of system, if Trump were elected he might be forced to have someone like AOC in his cabinet. MTG might have a position in the Biden Admin.

Unlike here in the US, where the charge of 'racism' is extremely exaggerated and has come to be used as a political tool by the left, Israel has always faced groups that want to kill them just because of their race and religion. That there are some in Israel that have distrust and enmity towards Palestinians in general is not good, but it is not surprising. Not a good thing, and I wish it weren't so, but criticism and condemnation of Palestinian and Muslim 'racism' against the Jewish people isn't a thing that is discussed very much, is it?

BTW: There have always been Arab members in the Israeli Knesset. Do you think Gaza or the West Bank have had any Jewish members of whatever government they had?

[wbtravis007]

So give me specific reasons why YOU think he is 'very bad'. What are your charges against him. Don't just repeat the memes.

If Ritterskoop doesn’t mind me interjecting, I have issues with Bibi too. I'll leave out political differences since those aren’t what make him very bad.

Since early 2023, Bibi has promoted an overhaul of Israeli government that will strip the courts of authority to review government decisions, even those that violate citizens' rights or are blatantly corrupt.

He has undermined the Palestinian Authority, allowed Israeli settlers to seize Palestinian land, etc., to destroy the possibility of a peace agreement.

He reneged on an deal that his government approved for fair treatment of different branches of Judaism.

He leads a government coalition that includes unapologetic racists.

As for charges, he's indicted for breach of trust, accepting bribes, and fraud.

Still, that doesn't put him in the same category as Hamas, whom I would describe as horrible.

Just your inclusion of the line about 'racists' dilutes your credibility. That word's definition has been so corrupted it means nothing anymore.

Still, he is the legitimate Prime Minister. It is up to the people of Israel to change that. Not you. Not us. Not the leftists. And certainly not the MSM, which you, apparently, from that racist comment, are relying on for most of your information. I happen to think he is a hero.

Awww. Poor little BiBi. It’s fine for him to come to our Congress and dis the Obama administration, but if the MSM or others criticize him it’s inappropriate interference by a bunch of meanies.

The whining by him and people like you reminds me of … well, you.

He can dish it out —(and, in your case, those attempts are invariably weak) — but he can’t take it.

[Weyoun]

It is interesting that Bibi can come to our Congress and beg and that’s fine, but if Zelensky does so it is grifting.

Again: constantly bombing Gazans does not actually serve a useful end to American foreign policy, unless you are the sort of bigot who thinks that killing every Arab/Muslim should be what our foreign policy is all about.

[flockofseagulls104]

It is interesting that Bibi can come to our Congress and beg and that’s fine, but if Zelensky does so it is grifting.

Again: constantly bombing Gazans does not actually serve a useful end to American foreign policy, unless you are the sort of bigot who thinks that killing every Arab/Muslim should be what our foreign policy is all about.

*Lessons From History:* In 1982, Senator Joe Biden warned Prime Minister Menachem Begin that he would seek to stop aid to Israel if the Israeli government did not accede to his demands regarding Israeli settlements. Begin reportedly replied "Don't threaten us with cutting off aid to give up our principles. I'm not a Jew with trembling knees. I am a proud Jew with 3,700 years of civilized history. Nobody came to our aid when we were dying in the gas chambers and ovens. Nobody came to our aid when we were striving to create our country. We paid for it. We fought for it. We died for it. We will stand by our principles. We will defend them. And, when necessary, we will die for them again, with or without your aid."

[flockofseagulls104]

It is interesting that Bibi can come to our Congress and beg and that’s fine, but if Zelensky does so it is grifting.

Again: constantly bombing Gazans does not actually serve a useful end to American foreign policy, unless you are the sort of bigot who thinks that killing every Arab/Muslim should be what our foreign policy is all about.

*Lessons From History:* In 1982, Senator Joe Biden warned Prime Minister Menachem Begin that he would seek to stop aid to Israel if the Israeli government did not accede to his demands regarding Israeli settlements. Begin reportedly replied "Don't threaten us with cutting off aid to give up our principles. I'm not a Jew with trembling knees. I am a proud Jew with 3,700 years of civilized history. Nobody came to our aid when we were dying in the gas chambers and ovens. Nobody came to our aid when we were striving to create our country. We paid for it. We fought for it. We died for it. We will stand by our principles. We will defend them. And, when necessary, we will die for them again, with or without your aid."

And biden's puppets have done it for real. They have halted shipments of offensive weapons to Israel. OK. biden's puppets have decided this arbitrarily on their own, pretty obviously to calm their leftist political supporters. This will make it harder for Israel to accomplish their goals in defending their nation. What if Hezbollah decides this is the time to attack? Or Iran?

Israel's response (Much like Begin's):
If we have to stand alone, we will stand alone. If we need to, we will fight with our fingernails. But we have much more than fingernails

Are we on the right side of history? Are we giving Hamas what they want?

[flockofseagulls104]

Another viewpoint from someone who might know a little about the situation.

"Biden has Biden's handlers have now said expressly that he will cut off weapons to Israel if Israel invades Rafah. Let’s be brutally clear here — Israel cannot defeat Hamas without entering Rafah, where Hamas maintains four fully functioning battalions. Biden is Biden's handlers are siding with Hamas over Israel — there’s no other way to say it," former U.S Ambassador to Israel David Friedman says. "And to those who say he is protecting the Palestinian people, I call BS. Hamas is a far greater enemy of the Palestinians than is Israel. Hamas is the cause of their suffering. Palestinians will continue to suffer until Hamas is eradicated. And, as for the hostages held by Hamas (including Americans), this betrayal of Israel makes their release much more difficult.Biden continues The people who control Biden continue to fail on every tough foreign policy call. And it’s all to gain the votes of self-hating Americans."

(I fixed it for him.)

[Weyoun]

It is interesting that Bibi can come to our Congress and beg and that’s fine, but if Zelensky does so it is grifting.

Again: constantly bombing Gazans does not actually serve a useful end to American foreign policy, unless you are the sort of bigot who thinks that killing every Arab/Muslim should be what our foreign policy is all about.

*Lessons From History:* In 1982, Senator Joe Biden warned Prime Minister Menachem Begin that he would seek to stop aid to Israel if the Israeli government did not accede to his demands regarding Israeli settlements. Begin reportedly replied "Don't threaten us with cutting off aid to give up our principles. I'm not a Jew with trembling knees. I am a proud Jew with 3,700 years of civilized history. Nobody came to our aid when we were dying in the gas chambers and ovens. Nobody came to our aid when we were striving to create our country. We paid for it. We fought for it. We died for it. We will stand by our principles. We will defend them. And, when necessary, we will die for them again, with or without your aid."

This sounds like exactly the type of person I wouldn’t give aid to. If they’re willing to burn it all down to defend themselves, I understand that, but that doesn’t mean we have to go down with them.

And that’s not what your following. Israel can do whatever it wants - that doesn’t mean we have to support them every single time.