"Whatever the hell they want" to NATO

[flockofseagulls104]

.."how well the country has been doing since President Biden was elected."??

There is no point. Still, no one has even bothered to answer my yes or no question. Not that I expected anyone to. Nothing will convince them to even examine any issue. They will always come down to Trump. Whatever the party says Trump says, or does, or means, that is what they go with, and no argument, fact or evidence will convince them otherwise. They are like a frog in a pot of water put on a burner. They have no idea what's happening outside their bubble. Nor do they care.

[silverscreenselect]

Answer the question: Yes or No. Should every member of NATO pay their full commitment to their own country's defense?

I assume this is the question you keep coming back to in this thread.

It's a meaningless question because it has no answer. There is no "full commitment." In 2014, the NATO nations set a goal of spending 2% of their GDP on national defense. In 2023, before that ten-year period was up, they reiterated the goal but removed any timeline. So, there was no binding commitment that any country failed to meet in 2014, in 2023, or now. Only goals. And every single NATO country has been making progress towards meeting those goals. From the NATO document I quoted from earlier which you clearly either didn't read or didn't understand:

The 2014 “Defence Investment Pledge” (DIP) – made by Allies at the 2014 Wales Summit, the first NATO summit held after the illegal annexation of Crimea – established an important baseline by setting the goal of at least 2% of GDP spent on defence by all Allies as a political commitment agreed at the level of Heads of State and Government.

If you want to reduce it to a yes or no question, the answer is yes. And they all have done what they committed to, namely setting a goal and working towards it. And since there's no timeline that has ever expired, they can't in any way be said to be in violation of a "commitment."

Your problem is that you blindly believe whatever Trump tells you. If you do decide to conduct some "research," it consists of going to a useful tool like the Gateway Pundit that parrots him. If Trump tells you to drink bleach to avoid COVID, you're on your way to the grocery tomorrow to buy a bottle of Clorox.

[Weyoun]

There is little point arguing this. The Trumpers are very binary, black and white thinkers, because they can't understand complicated things.

For example, they can't understand that you can worry about the border AND Ukraine at the same time, and do something at the same time to address both, without those interventions interfering with each other.

[flockofseagulls104]

There is little point arguing this. The Trumpers are very binary, black and white thinkers, because they can't understand complicated things.

For example, they can't understand that you can worry about the border AND Ukraine at the same time, and do something at the same time to address both, without those interventions interfering with each other.

Of course, we can't doc. We could never even aspire to be your intellectual equal.
It is presumptuous of us to even think that we could. All of us are just numbskulls. Or is moron the correct medical term?
That is what we have Joe Biden and Kamala Harris for: To understand complicated things for us.

[Weyoun]

There is little point arguing this. The Trumpers are very binary, black and white thinkers, because they can't understand complicated things.

For example, they can't understand that you can worry about the border AND Ukraine at the same time, and do something at the same time to address both, without those interventions interfering with each other.

Of course, we can't doc. We could never even aspire to be your intellectual equal.
It is presumptuous of us to even think that we could. All of us are just numbskulls. Or is moron the correct medical term?
That is what we have Joe Biden and Kamala Harris for: To understand complicated things for us.

It is somewhat sad that such a doddering old man can understand this stuff, but you can’t wrap your mind around it. Have you checked to see if your refrigerator is running.

[jarnon]

For those who think Russia is a threat just to Ukraine or to deadbeat European allies:

White House confirms Russia developing 'anti-satellite capability'

US disrupts Russian hacking campaign that infiltrated home, small business routers: DOJ

[jarnon]

[Asked about Biden's health] You see, when Biden and I met in Switzerland, even if it happened several years ago, in fact, three years ago, there were already those back then who were saying that he was unfit for office. I did not see anything of this sort. Well, he did keep glancing at his notes but, to be honest, I looked at mine too. Nothing special about that. And the fact that he banged his head on something when descending from a helicopter, well, who of us has never banged his head on something, let them throw the first stone, as the saying goes.

Overall, what I think… I am not a doctor, so I do not think that I can make any comments on this topic. We must look elsewhere, focus on the political position instead. I believe that the current administration is pursuing what amounts to a harmful and erroneous policy. This is what I told President Biden back then.

[Asked which candidate is better for Russia] Biden. He has more experience, and he is more predictable too, an old school politician. That said, we will work with any leader of the United States who has the trust of the American people.

Sad to say, no candidate has the people's trust.

[flockofseagulls104]

According to this, Trump is correct. Once again.

[silverscreenselect]

According to this, Trump is correct. Once again.

Your reading and/or comprehension skills are sadly lacking. From the article: "Although Trump has characterized countries under the benchmark as being "delinquent," the two per cent guidance refers to an individual country's defence commitment, not their contribution to a joint NATO defence fund."

And every NATO country has increased defense spending every year since 2014, when they adopted the 2% target until 2022, the most recent year for which data is available. They increased spending under Obama, under Trump, and under Biden. So Trump's threats had nothing to do with it. Putin's two invasions of Ukraine had a lot to do with it.

[silverscreenselect]

We have to take seriously the extent to which you’ve now got a Putin-wing of the Republican Party. I believe the issue this election cycle is making sure that the Putin-wing of the Republican Party does not take over the West Wing of the White House.

Spoken by someone who is a hard-right conservative who used to anchor the traditional Republican party, which will officially be retired next year when Mitt Romney leaves.

[flockofseagulls104]

We have to take seriously the extent to which you’ve now got a Putin-wing of the Republican Party. I believe the issue this election cycle is making sure that the Putin-wing of the Republican Party does not take over the West Wing of the White House.

Spoken by someone who is a hard-right conservative who used to anchor the traditional Republican party, which will officially be retired next year when Mitt Romney leaves.

So, now we are the Putin wing. And you call us conspiracy theorists and whackos. Neither I, nor anyone I know, has any love, respect or tolerance of Putin. He is evil personified. And by pointing out that he is smarter and outwitting you and your senile and power-hungry leaders, you extrapolate that we are on his side in some way. You are the ones who can only think in one dimension. One can be evil and smart at the same time, unfortunately. But you and Liz can think what you want and spout it out to the dumb masses. We know you are lying.

Yes, perhaps Liz used to anchor something (maybe to you she did, but I have no idea what that would be), but when she showed her true colors she was unconditionally and categorically thrown out by her own constituents. Mitt and his niece Ronna are leaving, too, of their own accord. They see where they are. All conservatives republicans are your enemies and stupid half-wits, and you spit on any stance they take, except when they hold the water of the uniparty. You, of course, know nothing and willingly remain ignorant of conservatism, its values and its goals. And you show that with every word you post on this bored. We, The People are taking back the republican party to make it the bulwark against the Swamp and the all-powerful Washington DC oligarchy being coordinated through the democrat and uniparty.

And you know what, guys? There is no name you can call me or epithet you can make up to hurl at me, or stupid word game you can play that will make me sway on my opinions or stop sharing them. But you can continue if you want. I don't care. It just goes to prove the shallowness of your positions. And none of you has yet come up with any original argument for your stances. You only recycle garbage which is full of logical holes and contradictions that some internet or political spin doctor has made up for you.

[kroxquo]

We have to take seriously the extent to which you’ve now got a Putin-wing of the Republican Party. I believe the issue this election cycle is making sure that the Putin-wing of the Republican Party does not take over the West Wing of the White House.

Spoken by someone who is a hard-right conservative who used to anchor the traditional Republican party, which will officially be retired next year when Mitt Romney leaves.

So, now we are the Putin wing. And you call us conspiracy theorists and whackos. Neither I, nor anyone I know, has any love, respect or tolerance of Putin. He is evil personified. And by pointing out that he is smarter and outwitting you and your senile and power-hungry leaders, you extrapolate that we are on his side in some way. You are the ones who can only think in one dimension. One can be evil and smart at the same time, unfortunately. But you and Liz can think what you want and spout it out to the dumb masses. We know you are lying.

Yes, perhaps Liz used to anchor something (maybe to you she did, but I have no idea what that would be), but when she showed her true colors she was unconditionally and categorically thrown out by her own constituents. Mitt and his niece Ronna are leaving, too, of their own accord. They see where they are. All conservatives republicans are your enemies and stupid half-wits, and you spit on any stance they take, except when they hold the water of the uniparty. You, of course, know nothing and willingly remain ignorant of conservatism, its values and its goals. And you show that with every word you post on this bored. We, The People are taking back the republican party to make it the bulwark against the Swamp and the all-powerful Washington DC oligarchy being coordinated through the democrat and uniparty.

And you know what, guys? There is no name you can call me or epithet you can make up to hurl at me, or stupid word game you can play that will make me sway on my opinions or stop sharing them. But you can continue if you want. I don't care. It just goes to prove the shallowness of your positions. And none of you has yet come up with any original argument for your stances. You only recycle garbage which is full of logical holes and contradictions that some internet or political spin doctor has made up for you.

I have asked you this question on several occasions. How is Liz Cheney NOT a conservative? Look at her voting record. She voted the conservative line way more than a majority of the time and (trying to be empathetic here) if I was a conservative living in Wyoming, would feel she represented my state pretty well. She was very much a mainstay of the conservative wing of the party and a supporter of the policies of the 45th President. So when you say "she showed her true colors," how do you mean? If it wasn't supporting the agenda of the 45th President (which she did, for the overwhelming majority of the time), then what was it?

[flockofseagulls104]

I have asked you this question on several occasions. How is Liz Cheney NOT a conservative?

Because she showed her ultimate loyalty is to the DC Swamp. Same as Mitt Romney. Same as all the other uniparty republicans. She may have voted with what the media conglomerate designates as the 'conservative' agenda, but when push came to shove, she participated and helped orchestrate the Soviet-style J6 narrative. It didn't even matter it was against Trump. The whole Star Chamber show was over-the-top propaganda, and true conservatives recognize this. It was the ultimate example of what the swamp and their media do to their opponents every day. It's just completely obvious with what they're doing to Trump, because they are so deathly afraid of him. Trump doesn't control us. He is the one who represents us. He is the only one who says what we elect conservatives to do, and he has shown he has the courage and fortitude to actually carry through and fight the swamp.

Look at DeSantis. He governed with conservative values and followed through. But when he decided to go to the national stage, he was compromised by the swamp. He couldn't withstand the heat. Trump has shown he can. The more they go at him, the stronger he gets.

Get your head out of the MSM and maybe you will start to understand.

[silverscreenselect]

but when push came to shove, she participated and helped orchestrate the Soviet-style J6 narrative.

By that, I assume you mean the facts as shown by dozens of witnesses who testified before the committee and not your murky conspiracy theories.

He is the only one who says what we elect conservatives to do, and he has shown he has the courage and fortitude to actually carry through and fight the swamp.

If that's the case, then why did our national deficits and national spending increase dramatically under Trump. I thought that's what conservatives were supposed to do, be fiscally conservative and reduce government debt and spending. And by the way, those tarriffs mentioned below aren't paid by foreign countries. They are paid by American consumers who buy foreign goods at an inflated price. You're right about one thing. Trump says just about anything and everything if you listen to him long enough.

Tax cuts and pandemic relief measures enacted during the Trump administration added $8.4 trillion to the national debt over the 10-year budget window, according to a study released Wednesday by a top budget watchdog group. Discretionary spending increases from 2018 and 2019 added $2.1 trillion, Trump’s signature Tax Cuts and Jobs Act added $1.9 trillion and the 2020 bipartisan CARES Act for pandemic relief added another $1.9 trillion, the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget (CRFB), a Washington think tank, found in a study released earlier this month.

“Of the $8.4 trillion President Trump added to the debt, $3.6 trillion came from COVID relief laws and executive orders, $2.5 trillion from tax cut laws, and $2.3 trillion from spending increases, with the remaining executive orders having costs and savings that largely offset each other,” budget experts with the CRFB wrote in a summary of the report. The only significant deficit reduction enacted by the Trump administration noted in the report was due to tariffs levied on a variety of imported goods, which are calculated to have brought in $445 billion over 10 years.

https://thehill.com/business/4426965-tr ... -analysis/

[wbtravis007]

I have asked you this question on several occasions. How is Liz Cheney NOT a conservative?

Because she showed her ultimate loyalty is to the DC Swamp. Same as Mitt Romney. Same as all the other uniparty republicans. She may have voted with what the media conglomerate designates as the 'conservative' agenda, but when push came to shove, she participated and helped orchestrate the Soviet-style J6 narrative. It didn't even matter it was against Trump. The whole Star Chamber show was over-the-top propaganda, and true conservatives recognize this. It was the ultimate example of what the swamp and their media do to their opponents every day. It's just completely obvious with what they're doing to Trump, because they are so deathly afraid of him. Trump doesn't control us. He is the one who represents us. He is the only one who says what we elect conservatives to do, and he has shown he has the courage and fortitude to actually carry through and fight the swamp.

Look at DeSantis. He governed with conservative values and followed through. But when he decided to go to the national stage, he was compromised by the swamp. He couldn't withstand the heat. Trump has shown he can. The more they go at him, the stronger he gets.

Get your head out of the MSM and maybe you will start to understand.

Why is everything still so swampy after Trump had 4 years to clean it all up? That was one of his big promises going in. And, since you're saying that it's still so bad, I'm wondering why you think he'd be able to clean it up this time after failing so miserably the first time.

[earendel]

I have asked you this question on several occasions. How is Liz Cheney NOT a conservative?

Because she showed her ultimate loyalty is to the DC Swamp. Same as Mitt Romney. Same as all the other uniparty republicans. She may have voted with what the media conglomerate designates as the 'conservative' agenda, but when push came to shove, she participated and helped orchestrate the Soviet-style J6 narrative. It didn't even matter it was against Trump. The whole Star Chamber show was over-the-top propaganda, and true conservatives recognize this. It was the ultimate example of what the swamp and their media do to their opponents every day. It's just completely obvious with what they're doing to Trump, because they are so deathly afraid of him. Trump doesn't control us. He is the one who represents us. He is the only one who says what we elect conservatives to do, and he has shown he has the courage and fortitude to actually carry through and fight the swamp.

Look at DeSantis. He governed with conservative values and followed through. But when he decided to go to the national stage, he was compromised by the swamp. He couldn't withstand the heat. Trump has shown he can. The more they go at him, the stronger he gets.

Get your head out of the MSM and maybe you will start to understand.

Why is everything still so swampy after Trump had 4 years to clean it all up? That was one of his big promises going in. And, since you're saying that it's still so bad, I'm wondering why you think he'd be able to clean it up this time after failing so miserably the first time.

Ooh, ooh! I know this one. It's because he chose people who weren't loyal to him, who worked behind his back to sabotage his agenda. He has vowed that this time he will choose people who will do what he tells them to do.

[wbtravis007]

Because she showed her ultimate loyalty is to the DC Swamp. Same as Mitt Romney. Same as all the other uniparty republicans. She may have voted with what the media conglomerate designates as the 'conservative' agenda, but when push came to shove, she participated and helped orchestrate the Soviet-style J6 narrative. It didn't even matter it was against Trump. The whole Star Chamber show was over-the-top propaganda, and true conservatives recognize this. It was the ultimate example of what the swamp and their media do to their opponents every day. It's just completely obvious with what they're doing to Trump, because they are so deathly afraid of him. Trump doesn't control us. He is the one who represents us. He is the only one who says what we elect conservatives to do, and he has shown he has the courage and fortitude to actually carry through and fight the swamp.

Look at DeSantis. He governed with conservative values and followed through. But when he decided to go to the national stage, he was compromised by the swamp. He couldn't withstand the heat. Trump has shown he can. The more they go at him, the stronger he gets.

Get your head out of the MSM and maybe you will start to understand.

Why is everything still so swampy after Trump had 4 years to clean it all up? That was one of his big promises going in. And, since you're saying that it's still so bad, I'm wondering why you think he'd be able to clean it up this time after failing so miserably the first time.

Ooh, ooh! I know this one. It's because he chose people who weren't loyal to him, who worked behind his back to sabotage his agenda. He has vowed that this time he will choose people who will do what he tells them to do.

Exactly. But no one should be worried about him undermining democracy if elected again since he didn’t do it the first time (arguably). Right?

And, let me add before “someone” gets all flustered that I understand that we are a republic.

[silverscreenselect]

The sudden death of Alexei Navalny has made me more and more aware of what is happening in our Country. It is a slow, steady progression, with CROOKED, Radical Left Politicians, Prosecutors, and Judges leading us down a path to destruction. Open Borders, Rigged Elections, and Grossly Unfair Courtroom Decisions are DESTROYING AMERICA. WE ARE A NATION IN DECLINE, A FAILING NATION! MAGA 2024.

After three days of silence regarding Navalny's death, this is what Trump posts on Truth Social.

It's not about Navalny. It's not about Putin. It's all about Trump and his grievances.

[flockofseagulls104]

The sudden death of Alexei Navalny has made me more and more aware of what is happening in our Country. It is a slow, steady progression, with CROOKED, Radical Left Politicians, Prosecutors, and Judges leading us down a path to destruction. Open Borders, Rigged Elections, and Grossly Unfair Courtroom Decisions are DESTROYING AMERICA. WE ARE A NATION IN DECLINE, A FAILING NATION! MAGA 2024.

After three days of silence regarding Navalny's death, this is what Trump posts on Truth Social.

It's not about Navalny. It's not about Putin. It's all about Trump and his grievances.

And, once again, he is correct.
Biden and the swamp are doing exactly what Putin did to his opposition. And you are too blind to even consider the evidence which is right in front of your nose.

Our border is wide open, elections have been and are being tampered with and the courts are politically influenced.

[Weyoun]

The sudden death of Alexei Navalny has made me more and more aware of what is happening in our Country. It is a slow, steady progression, with CROOKED, Radical Left Politicians, Prosecutors, and Judges leading us down a path to destruction. Open Borders, Rigged Elections, and Grossly Unfair Courtroom Decisions are DESTROYING AMERICA. WE ARE A NATION IN DECLINE, A FAILING NATION! MAGA 2024.

After three days of silence regarding Navalny's death, this is what Trump posts on Truth Social.

It's not about Navalny. It's not about Putin. It's all about Trump and his grievances.

And, once again, he is correct.
Biden and the swamp are doing exactly what Putin did to his opposition. And you are too blind to even consider the evidence which is right in front of your nose.

Our border is wide open, elections have been and are being tampered with and the courts are politically influenced.

If I am understanding this correctly, you are saying that Joe Biden murders his political opponents and launches wars against neighbors?

[flockofseagulls104]

After three days of silence regarding Navalny's death, this is what Trump posts on Truth Social.

It's not about Navalny. It's not about Putin. It's all about Trump and his grievances.

And, once again, he is correct.
Biden and the swamp are doing exactly what Putin did to his opposition. And you are too blind to even consider the evidence which is right in front of your nose.

Our border is wide open, elections have been and are being tampered with and the courts are politically influenced.

If I am understanding this correctly, you are saying that Joe Biden murders his political opponents and launches wars against neighbors?

No, you are not understanding what I said at all, you are being obtuse, and you are doing it deliberately.

[flockofseagulls104]

You've missed my point. Letting Ukraine die would ultimately be fatal to American interests. But I guess that's something you'll refuse to see until we have our own generation's Pearl Harbor.

What is your point? Before we blindly and unconditionally give Ukraine another XX billion dollars above what we've already given them, can someone please address the relevant question: What is the end game here? How many dollars will they need from us before the war there ends and people stop getting killed? What is the plan? Any clue? Or do we not need to know this? I haven't seen anything on this subject. Maybe I've missed it.

Letting Israel die would also be fatal to the world's interests. Why is that not at the top of the agenda with the leftists? Letting millions of unknown people cross into this country is also fatal to the interests of America. Letting Al Qaeda re-establish itself in Afghanistan after we surrendered it to the Taliban is also fatal to American interests. Why no concern from the left there?

[Weyoun]

And, once again, he is correct.
Biden and the swamp are doing exactly what Putin did to his opposition. And you are too blind to even consider the evidence which is right in front of your nose.

Our border is wide open, elections have been and are being tampered with and the courts are politically influenced.

If I am understanding this correctly, you are saying that Joe Biden murders his political opponents and launches wars against neighbors?

No, you are not understanding what I said at all, you are being obtuse, and you are doing it deliberately.

You said that Biden is doing “exactly” what Putin is doing. Well what Putin is doing is murdering his opponents.

Unless Biden is murdering his opponents, then he’s not doing “exactly” what Putin is doing.

Words mean things. I understand with slippery people like you, who contort and distort everything, that’s a difficult concept. But if you use the word exactly, we tend to think it means the word exactly, not something metaphorically.

[Weyoun]

You've missed my point. Letting Ukraine die would ultimately be fatal to American interests. But I guess that's something you'll refuse to see until we have our own generation's Pearl Harbor.

What is your point? Before we blindly and unconditionally give Ukraine another XX billion dollars above what we've already given them, can someone please address the relevant question: What is the end game here? How many dollars will they need from us before the war there ends and people stop getting killed? What is the plan? Any clue? Or do we not need to know this? I haven't seen anything on this subject. Maybe I've missed it.

Letting Israel die would also be fatal to the world's interests. Why is that not at the top of the agenda with the leftists? Letting millions of unknown people cross into this country is also fatal to the interests of America. Letting Al Qaeda re-establish itself in Afghanistan after we surrendered it to the Taliban is also fatal to American interests. Why no concern from the left there?

I think the endgame is very obvious. It to get Russia stuck in a difficult war, where they have to withdraw and lose. Letting Russia swallow up a large portion of Ukraine would make it easy for totalitarians everywhere to justify an attack having Russia that much closer to the rest of Europe, and emboldened by our isolationism, is also more likely to lead to a difficult war.

You argument about Israel is not really clear. They’re right now demolishing Gazza. Honestly, what help they need is not clear. I realize that lunatic fundamentalists think that the state of Israel existing is somehow key to the world’s end, but that’s not exactly making me feel better about the situation.

However, I am OK with some kind of support for Israel, since otherwise would embolden Iran, and that could lead to a worsening crisis in the region. With that said, Israel butchering a bunch of Palestinians also could lead to a crisis.

I would also note that Iran is supporting the Russian war effort, so if we’re being consistent, you really should support Ukraine against Iran.

But the idea that Israel bulldozing Gaza is a fundamental interest is bizarre and not really clear to me. There’s a real chance it will isolate other countries in the region that we are trying to make allies of, such a Saudi Arabia and UAE. You may not like these folks because of their worldview, but I have a difficult time understanding why they would be such a problem to you, but Russia would not be.

[flockofseagulls104]

So, our response to Navalny is we are going to impose 'very strong sanctions'!

Excuse me, didn't we do that already? I think biden believes everyone's memory is as bad as his. I thought our previous sanctions would bring Russia to its knees and stop them from waging war and bring it to an end quickly? Somehow, I deduce that didn't quite work.

I want the war to end, I want no more people on either side to die, and I want a peaceful solution that keeps Ukraine a sovereign nation. But I do not agree with giving them endless money. That hasn't stopped the war thus far, and I don't see how it will lead to any end, except more people being killed. Your solution is to have it go on until Russia gets tired of it? Using OUR money, which we have to borrow from other countries that hate us? What about the innocent people who will be casualties until that ever happens? You are so willing to question my, and Spock's and whoever's humanity. Where the fuck is yours, doc?