A Tough, But Necessary Watch-"Screams Before Silence"

[flockofseagulls104]

What Israel has done brings to mind the old saying, "you broke it, you bought it." It's become increasingly clear that Israel had no real plan either for eliminating Hamas, getting the hostages back, or dealing with Gaza after the war. And yet Flock and Spock think it's up to Weyoun and me to come up with a better plan.

Yes, it is. You have absolutely no idea what plan Israel is executing. All you are doing is disseminating what their opposition wants you to disseminate. If you have a better plan, then present it.

I have stated mine, which I think should be our nation's stance. Either all Hamas leadership and terrorists surrender unconditionally and all remaining hostages are released immediately, or we will support any action against Hamas that Israel chooses to execute. That message should be broadcast widely throughout Gaza, warning the populace of what's coming. Hamas has shown by its actions and atrocities that it does not belong as an entity in the civilized world.

We warn the population what's coming. Then what? What are the people of Palestine supposed to do with this warning. There is no where left for them to hide or go. Israel's actions are going to lead to a whole new generation who believes that Israel is their mortal enemy unless genocide of the Palestinians is the goal of the Israeli government. I as an American am not willing to throw my support behind that.Hama's actions and strategy is to hide behind and among their civilian population. Just as in Nazi Germany, there is a segment of the population that abhored what the Nazi's had turned their country into. I'm sure Israel is much more aware of these facts than you are, than the US is and than the world in general is. And they have always been committed to protecting themselves in a way that minimized collateral damage. But when you are fighting an enemy that has no regard for collateral damage even among its own, and is committed to genocide against your citizens in the most inhuman methods they can think of, you must fight them in methods that will be effective. I believe Israel will do what they need to and will do what is right.

Fixed it for you.

[Spock]

Krox(I think)->>>"Hama's actions and strategy is to hide behind and among their civilian population. Just as in Nazi Germany, there is a segment of the population that abhored what the Nazi's had turned their country into"<<<<

A liberal stating pollyannish assumptions about "Segments of the population" abhorring Hamas means nothing.

Wish in one hand and "S**t in the other and throw in your pollyannish assumptions for good measure and a whole mess of young left-wing Israelis still get brutally massacred at a music festival.

Also, I think the Germans who hated Hitler really didn't do us much good in the end. Germans had to be killed by the millions to defeat Naziism.

[earendel]

I don't think there is much evidence that the Gazan youth held moderate views on Israel prior to 10/7.

It seems that an awful lot of them held pretty radical views and they certainly acted on10/7 like already they viewed Israel as their mortal enemy.

But, I know. It is an article of faith on the left that whatever Israel does just creates more enemies. The only response you would have been happy with would have been for them to just do nothing and bend over and take it again whenever Hamas/Hezbollah wants to do it again.

The "final solution" based on your statements, then, is to eradicate the entire population of the Gaza strip. Does the word "genocide" apply in such an instance? And once Gaza is eliminated, then should Israel march into Lebanon and deal with Hezbollah, and continue their march all the way into Iran and eliminate the mullahs (or perhaps the entire populations of Lebanon, Syria, and Iran)? Where does it end?

[Spock]

I don't think there is much evidence that the Gazan youth held moderate views on Israel prior to 10/7.

It seems that an awful lot of them held pretty radical views and they certainly acted on10/7 like already they viewed Israel as their mortal enemy.

But, I know. It is an article of faith on the left that whatever Israel does just creates more enemies. The only response you would have been happy with would have been for them to just do nothing and bend over and take it again whenever Hamas/Hezbollah wants to do it again.

The "final solution" based on your statements, then, is to eradicate the entire population of the Gaza strip. Does the word "genocide" apply in such an instance? And once Gaza is eliminated, then should Israel march into Lebanon and deal with Hezbollah, and continue their march all the way into Iran and eliminate the mullahs (or perhaps the entire populations of Lebanon, Syria, and Iran)? Where does it end?

Well, it seems that Hamas et al-have a pretty obvious final soltion in mind-Kill all the Jews in Israel to start with and then...who knows?

and I am sure you don't need to be reminded, but Israel had completely pulled out of Gaza in 2006 (or so) and left them to their own devices until the events of 10/7 forced their hand..

but it seems to escape you that the only reason they went back in was because of the brutal massacre on 10/7. I know you are a strong Palestinian sympathizer, but maybe you could at least recognize that fact.

I also know you are a strong supporter of Hamas tactics (where they hide among civilians) because the more successful they are at that tactic-ie the more Gazan civilians get killed-the more you want to reward that tactic and force Israel to stand down.

[earendel]

I don't think there is much evidence that the Gazan youth held moderate views on Israel prior to 10/7.

It seems that an awful lot of them held pretty radical views and they certainly acted on10/7 like already they viewed Israel as their mortal enemy.

But, I know. It is an article of faith on the left that whatever Israel does just creates more enemies. The only response you would have been happy with would have been for them to just do nothing and bend over and take it again whenever Hamas/Hezbollah wants to do it again.

The "final solution" based on your statements, then, is to eradicate the entire population of the Gaza strip. Does the word "genocide" apply in such an instance? And once Gaza is eliminated, then should Israel march into Lebanon and deal with Hezbollah, and continue their march all the way into Iran and eliminate the mullahs (or perhaps the entire populations of Lebanon, Syria, and Iran)? Where does it end?

Well, it seems that Hamas et al-have a pretty obvious final soltion in mind-Kill all the Jews in Israel to start with and then...who knows?

and I am sure you don't need to be reminded, but Israel had completely pulled out of Gaza in 2006 (or so) and left them to their own devices until the events of 10/7 forced their hand..

but it seems to escape you that the only reason they went back in was because of the brutal massacre on 10/7. I know you are a strong Palestinian sympathizer, but maybe you could at least recognize that fact.

I also know you are a strong supporter of Hamas tactics (where they hide among civilians) because the more successful they are at that tactic-ie the more Gazan civilians get killed-the more you want to reward that tactic and force Israel to stand down.

You didn't respond to my question (not surprisingly). It seems that you posit a binary choice - either Israel exterminates all of its enemies, or Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/etc. exterminates Israel.

As for being a "strong Palestinian sympathizer" and a "strong supporter of Hamas tactics", I defy you to find one single post of mine that suggests either. I will say that I am sympathetic to those who are suffering because of the war, on both sides. But not to Hamas and not to Netanyahu.

[flockofseagulls104]

I remember one brief period following 9/11 where this whole country and seemingly the whole world was united against the brutal, inhuman terrorism perpetrated by jihadist Muslims.

That did not last long. The only hope for the civilized world is to understand that our enemy, evil, does not fight according to international laws governing war. We must unite and agree on a way of eliminating that threat if we truly want to have a civilized world. I remember posing this same question way back when this bored was young.

You want to condemn Israel for its actions to defend itself? Can you even try to put yourself in their shoes? They had one nation do its best to eliminate their entire race/population in the last century and face another with that as its stated goal. They have tried to come to an understanding/compromise with these entities for as long as I have been alive. Their enemies have shown absolutely no desire to compromise. Israel has just experienced what these entities are capable of and they want to do to and with their population. They are truly faced with that question. I say let them try and find an answer to it, help them if we can, but not stand in their way. I'm sure they are mindful of the consequences, but what choice do they really have?

[silverscreenselect]

They had one nation do its best to eliminate their entire race/population in the last century and face another with that as its stated goal. They have tried to come to an understanding/compromise with these entities for as long as I have been alive. Their enemies have shown absolutely no desire to compromise.

Please explain to me exactly who is the "enemy." This isn't like World War II where Germany and Japan were our enemies. There is no current nation whose stated goal is the elimination of Israel. Now, there are plenty of individuals who have that goal, and they are located in many different countries, including the United States. A bunch of them were the "very good people" that Donald Trump praised in Charlottesville a few years back.

The "elimination of Hamas" sounds like a fine aim until you get into the details of what that entails. I've never heard you or Netanyahu define what the ultimate military objective is. Hamas doesn't have a fort or stronghold where they're bunkered down that can be blasted to bits in a traditional military operation. Do we even know how many people we're talking about here? Do they have a membership roster where we can check off all the names? We knew who the Nazis were after World War II and it took decades to track some of them down.

I assume Israel has already seized the tunnel system that Hamas used to stage the October 7 attack and destroyed or rendered them inoperable. Any major weapons stashes in the tunnels or Gaza City and surroundings are gone as well. So, they have rendered much of Hamas' military capacity useless. What's left is a matter of maximum civilian casualties for minimum military gain. Israel has great intelligence capabilities, as jarnon noted, to take out operatives in the middle of Damascus, so targeted strikes can be very effective against the remaining leaders. And setting the stage for a lasting peace is essential, which Netanyahu seemingly has no idea how to accomplish. In the last decade, he made the situation worse by effectively buttressing Hamas at the expense of other possible ruling groups. Now, his main goal seems to be to accomplish a "victory" that will enable him to remain in power a while longer.

I'm hopeful this ceasefire will go into effect and give Israel the opportunity to craft a better long-term strategy, which they have shown little signs of doing so far.

[flockofseagulls104]

This isn't like World War II where Germany and Japan were our enemies.

Exactly my point. You have a very thick skull, apparently.

There is no current nation whose stated goal is the elimination of Israel.

Really? Maybe you haven't heard of Iran? What world do you live in?

Now, there are plenty of individuals who have that goal, and they are located in many different countries, including the United States. A bunch of them were the "very good people" that Donald Trump praised in Charlottesville a few years back.

Once again, it is all about trump with you. I have grown very tired of your bringing in the same old stupid tropes, which you obsess on. The Charlottesville narrative is pure bullshit that works for the dumb and uninformed only. There is no purpose bringing it up to me. I don't know why you even do that. By repeating it often enough, you're going to convince me? Is that what you think? Maybe if you try 4 million times, you can convince me that trump really wanted people to inject bleach into their veins.

[Spock]

The "final solution" based on your statements, then, is to eradicate the entire population of the Gaza strip. Does the word "genocide" apply in such an instance? And once Gaza is eliminated, then should Israel march into Lebanon and deal with Hezbollah, and continue their march all the way into Iran and eliminate the mullahs (or perhaps the entire populations of Lebanon, Syria, and Iran)? Where does it end?

Well, it seems that Hamas et al-have a pretty obvious final soltion in mind-Kill all the Jews in Israel to start with and then...who knows?

and I am sure you don't need to be reminded, but Israel had completely pulled out of Gaza in 2006 (or so) and left them to their own devices until the events of 10/7 forced their hand..

but it seems to escape you that the only reason they went back in was because of the brutal massacre on 10/7. I know you are a strong Palestinian sympathizer, but maybe you could at least recognize that fact.

I also know you are a strong supporter of Hamas tactics (where they hide among civilians) because the more successful they are at that tactic-ie the more Gazan civilians get killed-the more you want to reward that tactic and force Israel to stand down.

You didn't respond to my question (not surprisingly). It seems that you posit a binary choice - either Israel exterminates all of its enemies, or Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/etc. exterminates Israel.

As for being a "strong Palestinian sympathizer" and a "strong supporter of Hamas tactics", I defy you to find one single post of mine that suggests either. I will say that I am sympathetic to those who are suffering because of the war, on both sides. But not to Hamas and not to Netanyahu.

Obviously, I chose poor verbiage when I said you are a "Strong supporter of Hamas tactics" but I really believe you are what is known as a useful idiot for Hamas in that you fit the exact target profile for those tactics. The more successful those tactics are-the more you want to reward those tactics by forcing Israel to stand down.

I really don't know what the answer is-but I do know that Israel had completely pulled out of Gaza in 2006 (and only went back in after 10/7)and left them to their own devices and instead of working to join the world-Hamas (the elected leadership of Gaza) chose to build terror tunnels by the hundreds of miles and launched countless rocket attacks against Israel.

[earendel]

Obviously, I chose poor verbiage when I said you are a "Strong supporter of Hamas tactics" but I really believe you are what is known as a useful idiot for Hamas in that you fit the exact target profile for those tactics. The more successful those tactics are-the more you want to reward those tactics by forcing Israel to stand down.

I really don't know what the answer is-but I do know that Israel had completely pulled out of Gaza in 2006 (and only went back in after 10/7)and left them to their own devices and instead of working to join the world-Hamas (the elected leadership of Gaza) chose to build terror tunnels by the hundreds of miles and launched countless rocket attacks against Israel.

All I know is that by inflicting massive civilian casualties on the population of Gaza the only thing that Israel accomplishes is to make it even harder to find a way to bring peace to the region. Extermination of the entire population is the only way to be certain, and surely you and Israel's "useful idiots" aren't suggesting that.

[flockofseagulls104]

Obviously, I chose poor verbiage when I said you are a "Strong supporter of Hamas tactics" but I really believe you are what is known as a useful idiot for Hamas in that you fit the exact target profile for those tactics. The more successful those tactics are-the more you want to reward those tactics by forcing Israel to stand down.

I really don't know what the answer is-but I do know that Israel had completely pulled out of Gaza in 2006 (and only went back in after 10/7)and left them to their own devices and instead of working to join the world-Hamas (the elected leadership of Gaza) chose to build terror tunnels by the hundreds of miles and launched countless rocket attacks against Israel.

All I know is that by inflicting massive civilian casualties on the population of Gaza the only thing that Israel accomplishes is to make it even harder to find a way to bring peace to the region. Extermination of the entire population is the only way to be certain, and surely you and Israel's "useful idiots" aren't suggesting that.

The unconditional surrender and complete dismantling of Hamas is the objective. Just as the surrender of Germany and Japan was the objective of WWII. Israel is fighting a new kind of war. And we better hope that they can win it and show us how, because if they don't, it will eventually come to us. Biden's open border is letting in the cast of characters for that.

And please try and understand this if nothing else: It is not Israel who is responsible for the civilian deaths. It is Hamas. And ultimately Iran. You are playing the part they cast you to play.

[Weyoun]

Again, it’s possible to think that Israel has a right to exist, that the October attack was horrific and terrible, and also that 20,000 dead Palestinian kids is also a bad thing.

It’s very strange how there is a certain group of people here that can’t come around to mentioning that Palestinian dead kids is bad.

[flockofseagulls104]

Again, it’s possible to think that Israel has a right to exist, that the October attack was horrific and terrible, and also that 20,000 dead Palestinian kids is also a bad thing.

It’s very strange how there is a certain group of people here that can’t come around to mentioning that Palestinian dead kids is bad.

Every Gazan civilian that is killed is a tragedy. It never should have happened and I pray that not one more Palestinian suffers any hurt.

Hamas should surrender immediately and release every hostage that they have not already killed. That will put an end to all the killing of innocent civilians on both sides, at least on the Hamas and Gazan front. Until then, every Gazan civilian casualty is on Hamas. Which is part of their strategy.

Is it possible for you to understand this?

[wbtravis007]

I remember one brief period following 9/11 where this whole country and seemingly the whole world was united against the brutal, inhuman terrorism perpetrated by jihadist Muslims.

That did not last long. The only hope for the civilized world is to understand that our enemy, evil, does not fight according to international laws governing war. We must unite and agree on a way of eliminating that threat if we truly want to have a civilized world. I remember posing this same question way back when this bored was young.

Yeah. I remember that, too.

Your takes about Iraq were the worst on the board back then.

And nothing has really changed in that respect pretty much across—the-board since then.

Sad.

[Weyoun]

Again, it’s possible to think that Israel has a right to exist, that the October attack was horrific and terrible, and also that 20,000 dead Palestinian kids is also a bad thing.

It’s very strange how there is a certain group of people here that can’t come around to mentioning that Palestinian dead kids is bad.

Every Gazan civilian that is killed is a tragedy. It never should have happened and I pray that not one more Palestinian suffers any hurt.

Hamas should surrender immediately and release every hostage that they have not already killed. That will put an end to all the killing of innocent civilians on both sides, at least on the Hamas and Gazan front. Until then, every Gazan civilian casualty is on Hamas. Which is part of their strategy.

Is it possible for you to understand this?

So, it is entirely Hamas' fault, and Israel has carte blanche to murder anyone whatsoever until the hostages are freed? Are the loud noises in your head at it again?

[Weyoun]

I remember one brief period following 9/11 where this whole country and seemingly the whole world was united against the brutal, inhuman terrorism perpetrated by jihadist Muslims.

That did not last long. The only hope for the civilized world is to understand that our enemy, evil, does not fight according to international laws governing war. We must unite and agree on a way of eliminating that threat if we truly want to have a civilized world. I remember posing this same question way back when this bored was young.

Yeah. I remember that, too.

Your takes about Iraq were the worst on the board back then.

And nothing has really changed in that respect pretty much across—the-board since then.

Sad.

It is very strange that flock, like most Trumpers, is against any American foreign policy adventure, and is favor of pure isolationism - until it comes to the issue of Israel, when killing as many Muslims as possible is completely ok, and we should help them out with that. Why is that?

[flockofseagulls104]

I remember one brief period following 9/11 where this whole country and seemingly the whole world was united against the brutal, inhuman terrorism perpetrated by jihadist Muslims.

That did not last long. The only hope for the civilized world is to understand that our enemy, evil, does not fight according to international laws governing war. We must unite and agree on a way of eliminating that threat if we truly want to have a civilized world. I remember posing this same question way back when this bored was young.

Yeah. I remember that, too.

Your takes about Iraq were the worst on the board back then.

And nothing has really changed in that respect pretty much across—the-board since then.

Sad.

It is very strange that flock, like most Trumpers, is against any American foreign policy adventure, and is favor of pure isolationism - until it comes to the issue of Israel, when killing as many Muslims as possible is completely ok, and we should help them out with that. Why is that?

Where does your head go? I never said that. What I said is that it's Israel's fight. Let them do it the way they plan. And support them with material as requested.
Again, what the fuck does this have to do with trump, except that it is your obsession?

[tlynn78]

Yeah. I remember that, too.

Your takes about Iraq were the worst on the board back then.

And nothing has really changed in that respect pretty much across—the-board since then.

Sad.

It is very strange that flock, like most Trumpers, is against any American foreign policy adventure, and is favor of pure isolationism - until it comes to the issue of Israel, when killing as many Muslims as possible is completely ok, and we should help them out with that. Why is that?

Where does your head go? I never said that. What I said is that it's Israel's fight. Let them do it the way they plan. And support them with material as requested.
Again, what the fuck does this have to do with trump, except that it is your obsession?

I've told you, Flock; they love the taste of his name in their mouths..they can't help it.

[earendel]

The unconditional surrender and complete dismantling of Hamas is the objective. Just as the surrender of Germany and Japan was the objective of WWII. Israel is fighting a new kind of war. And we better hope that they can win it and show us how, because if they don't, it will eventually come to us. Biden's open border is letting in the cast of characters for that.

I understand the objective. But unlike Germany and Japan, Hamas seems determined to fight to the bitter end.

And please try and understand this if nothing else: It is not Israel who is responsible for the civilian deaths. It is Hamas. And ultimately Iran. You are playing the part they cast you to play.

Responsibility is not the issue as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't matter who is inflicting the harm; I don't imagine the civilians fleeing the shooting and bombing are concerned about who is responsible.

[silverscreenselect]

Until then, every Gazan civilian casualty is on Hamas. Which is part of their strategy.

If American police departments thought like you, every bank robber hostage in this country would be dead.

[flockofseagulls104]

Finally, I have seen a politician say pretty much exactly what I have said here.
But, of course, he is from the 'far right'. So he is out of the mainstream and cannot be taken seriously.

[Weyoun]

Yeah. I remember that, too.

Your takes about Iraq were the worst on the board back then.

And nothing has really changed in that respect pretty much across—the-board since then.

Sad.

It is very strange that flock, like most Trumpers, is against any American foreign policy adventure, and is favor of pure isolationism - until it comes to the issue of Israel, when killing as many Muslims as possible is completely ok, and we should help them out with that. Why is that?

Where does your head go? I never said that. What I said is that it's Israel's fight. Let them do it the way they plan. And support them with material as requested.
Again, what the fuck does this have to do with trump, except that it is your obsession?

“This is Israel’s fight only, which is why we must give them the materials to fight” is not a coherent statement

[flockofseagulls104]

It is very strange that flock, like most Trumpers, is against any American foreign policy adventure, and is favor of pure isolationism - until it comes to the issue of Israel, when killing as many Muslims as possible is completely ok, and we should help them out with that. Why is that?

Where does your head go? I never said that. What I said is that it's Israel's fight. Let them do it the way they plan. And support them with material as requested.
Again, what the fuck does this have to do with trump, except that it is your obsession?

“This is Israel’s fight only, which is why we must give them the materials to fight” is not a coherent statement

You have no standing on lecturing anyone on coherence, doc. But I guess you can blame your insane postings on your audio settings just like biden's stuttering.

[Weyoun]

Where does your head go? I never said that. What I said is that it's Israel's fight. Let them do it the way they plan. And support them with material as requested.
Again, what the fuck does this have to do with trump, except that it is your obsession?

“This is Israel’s fight only, which is why we must give them the materials to fight” is not a coherent statement

You have no standing on lecturing anyone on coherence, doc. But I guess you can blame your insane postings on your audio settings just like biden's stuttering.

Didn't address the point I made, but it at least it was a coherent thought, so you are improving.