kroxquo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 1:43 am
flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:00 pm
jarnon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:53 pm
Here are two journal articles documenting the high rate of suicide and suicide attempts among transgender people, one from India and 2016 and the other from the U.S. in 2014:
Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons
Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Non-Gender-Conforming Adults
Here is a British website that attempts to rebut these arguments:
Suicide Facts and Myths
Keep in mind that transgender people are a small fraction of the population, about 1%. When we were growing up, it was a condition of shame and secrecy, so we weren't aware of it as a cause of suicide. There are many other articles that document this phenomenon, as well as other rebuttals. It's a subject that should be debated with compassion, not ridiculed as Flock does or silenced as in Montana.
Jarnon, you just don't get it. There is no debate here. Just quoting internet pages from 'experts' on both sides then name-calling and sanctimony. Sarcasm aside, what have I said that is not true?
Here's another one I just thought of.
If we are to allow minors, say of 12 or 13, to decide they are not the sex they biologically are and get medical treatment without their parents consent, then, dammit, they should also be allowed to drink, drive, join the military, have sex, vote and many other things, too. Don't you think? Why not? It's only fair. All the lefties here should definitely agree with me here, or else they are showing their hypocrisy. But, alas, that has never stopped them before.
What about a 6-year-old who believes they are a bunny rabbit? Species affirming surgery?
You often disparage people who use valid, scientific citations. What is wrong with using the opinions of people with expertise in a given field? You and I do it all the time. If a pipe breaks in my basement, I am going to rely on an expert to diagnose it and fix it. When my tooth was hurting earlier this year, I relied on an expert to diagnose it and put on a crown instead of my figuring it out myself. Any intellectual debate can and should involve facts and opinions of those more knowledgeable on a subject than ourselves. I will agree with you that I do not condone name calling on either side.
As to your point about other activities, those are all lifestyle choices, not biological imperatives. I know that you disagree that gender dysfunction is biological, but let me ask you. If gender is a choice, when did you decide to be heterosexual? (I am making that assumption. If you are not, I apologize). There must have been a moment that you made that choice. LGBTQ people have to struggle with the knowledge that they are different from the societal norms. I know that this is strictly anecdotal, I have known too many young people who have dealt with that struggle (including 2 of my 3 daughters) and had serious issues up to and including suicide attempts to not acknowledge the issue and try to be sympathetic to them. Jarnon is right; the biggest difference between now and when we were young is awareness that there is a problem.
You, like many who seem to have somehow been given power over the rest of us, are confusing gender with sex. A person born with XY chromosomes is MALE. A person born with XX chromosomes is a FEMALE. And at this point in our scientific knowledge and expertise, they always will be that throughout their lives. That is their SEX.
I have never argued that some persons can be convinced in their minds that they should be a female even though they have XY chromosomes, and vice versa. Up to a few years ago that was a dysfunction called gender dysphoria. But then, some individual or group of people made a decision that changed that, without any debate or input from anyone else, and somehow their decision had the power to reorder our society and culture. And anyone who questions it is accused of all kinds of things. None of them very pleasant. That is what the controversy is about.
This has led to biological MEN being not only allowed, but encouraged and supported by a spate of new regulations and laws, none of them publically debated before they were imposed, to compete against biological women in competitive sports. It has led to biological MEN being allowed to and supported by new regulations and laws to enter and use FEMALE only restrooms, locker rooms and other spaces. It has led to arbitrary and enforced changes to our language and vocabulary coming out of nowhere. It has led to the abominable practice of administering drugs and hormones and surgical procedures to minor children who claim to have what was formerly diagnosed as gender dysphoria, many times being done without even notifying the children's parents or legal guardians.
Can you not see how WRONG that is? Can you not understand how a lot of people have fully valid and compassionate reasons for disagreeing? Can you not see how it is completely against women's rights? I thought your party was supposedly the champion of women's rights. Show me one female who has transitioned to male that has excelled or even participated in male sporting events. There are many reasons there are separate restrooms for men and women. Where has all this come from, and why has it been enforced on us so rapidly and by who, exactly?
My view, and this is MY view, is that a person's SEX is assigned at birth. We are, except in very rare cases, XX or XY exclusively. Female or Male. That, by the way, is actual science. And that will not and cannot be changed. What gender the person decides they want to present themselves as is completely up to them, AFTER THEY BECOME AN ADULT. After whatever arbitrary definition we have decided for everything else: alcohol consumption, voting, military eligibility, etc, an individual can choose to indulge in whatever hormone regimen they want, whatever cosmetic surgery they want, etc. but ONLY after they reach the age of majority. If they do so before the age of majority, it is like everything else: it has to be the decision of the guardian of that child. My opinion is that if any guardian does any of this irreversible stuff to a child, it is child mutilation. If it is done by anyone other than the child's guardian without consent, it is even more criminal, if that is possible.
After such a person reaches adulthood, they can do all that stuff to themselves to their heart's content and they can ask other people to refer to them in whatever way they prefer. But it is a REQUEST. Other people have the right to refer to them in whatever way they want, without legal ramifications, because of our first amendment rights.
But in the eyes of the law, they are the SEX that their chromosomes assign them to. They can present themselves in whatever way they want, but they are the SEX they were born into, and they cannot encroach upon the barriers society has set up for the biological sexes. Otherwise, what's the point of having female sports at all? What's the point of having men's and women's public restrooms?
Your point about suicides may be valid, but I think the recent push to 'educate' minors on sexual issues has probably exacerbated the problem. There are probably other ways than the path that is being forced down our throats that create substantially less unintended consequences to address that problem.
Kansas has, I believe, just passed what I believe is common sense legislation to address this issue as best they can, given the circumstances, but they shouldn't have had to. They were forced to do it by the radical fringe that somehow has more power than they deserve, and do not compromise on anything.
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Our perspectives and our opinions are different. If you think I hate anyone, that's your prerogative, but I will say you are wrong and it's very short-sighted and will lead to more division to act that way. When I decided to return to this board, there was a reason behind it. But I'm still feeling my way as to how to get what I want out of it. It may well be impossible. I decided I would give my opinion but not engage in arguments or debates with the kneejerk haters. I just don't want my decision not to respond to the hate thrown at me to be construed as defacto agreement or surrender to their points. I am just stating my opinions, and regardless of what it looks like on this bored and out on the media wasteland, a lot of other people share my perspective and we're not going away. There will be pushback, and it is growing. They need to get used to it.